D&D 4E I bought GURPS 4e!!!! (and returned it the next day)

[buzz]

I commented on this over on the SJG boards... as others have said, it all dpeends on *which* d20 products you're talking about.

One should also keep in mind that GURPS and d20 (at least "straight" SRD d20) also have different goals. GURPS was designed with the intention of being multi-genre, and thus with providing a dizzying array of options for chargen. d20 was originally designed as the engine for D&D, which, while presenting amuch more flexible engine than previous editions, is ultimately more about presenting strong archetypes with clear meta-goals (e.g., level advanement), and less about being incredibly flexible.

Each approach has its tradeoffs. GURPS is very flexible, but GURPS can get pretty complex and time-consuming, and prior to the addition of templates to the system, this can throw off newbies. What's the saying? "GURPS is like a cow. You can't eat the whole thing at once; you need to start with small cuts."

OTOH, d20 has clear character types and chargen is focused enough that creating a new character is pretty fast and, IMO, intuitive. Of course, you're trading off flexibility; d20 games tend to be tailored to one specific setting or genre, and that's all they do (though they may do it really, really well).

So, really, it all pretty much comes down to your taste and your needs.

This is all moot, though, as HERO is better than both of them.

 

[Talon5]

Maybe you aren't looking at the right place in d20. Go look at d20 Modern, it has all the elements you are looking for, even in just the few official books from WotC released so far. Breaking it down:
Psionics: In the d20 Modern core book, slightly elaborated in Urban Arcana
Space Travel: In the d20 Future suppliment for d20 M.
Time/Dimensional Travel: In d20 Future.
Magic: In the d20 Modern core book, heavily elaborated in Urban Arcana.
Spirits & Horror: The d20 Modern Core book, with lots more in the Menace Manual and Urban Arcana, and even a bit of d20 Future (the "Dark Heart of Space" setting).

First off- The campaign we played was/is a once in a life time campaign.

Secondly- the rules for d20 don't seem to make the leap that GURPs does. THe gun rules are pretty lame, location shots are non exsistant, the rules work well for the genre, but not a cross over in d20- meaning I like D&D (3.25e), Modern looks interesting- but its not strong enough to draw me in (I think GURPs pulls the modern off better), the Supers (M&M) is far better then anything GURPs had in the same area, High Tech campaigns- not seen anything in d20 that really catches my eye on it so can't make a judgement there so by default (IMHO) GURPs outshines there too.

I can respect your POV on the whole d20 thing but I think they (d20) only got two things (M&M and D&D) right while GURPs got quite a bit more right.

 

[Talon5]

The cross-dimensional game Talon5 mentioned would be nigh-impossible to replicate with any fidelity in d20 Modern; the characters are very experienced, which gives them a wide array of skills and abilities, which would require so many levels in d20 Modern that it would probably take Epic-level monsters from D&D to really challege 'em -- which would be an entirely wrong feel.

Well said- something I wanted to add (seeing Coyote's mention here), is that in d20 you can't just get in a fun little bar fight. When you hit the level these characters are at in a d20 campaign a fun little bar fight turns into a earth shaking event or 20th lvl fighter vs a couple of commoners2 which would just be a slaughter.

I like the feeling that GURPs allows in campaigns

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I commented on this over on the SJG boards... as others have said, it all dpeends on *which* d20 products you're talking about.

One should also keep in mind that GURPS and d20 (at least "straight" SRD d20) also have different goals. GURPS was designed with the intention of being multi-genre, and thus with providing a dizzying array of options for chargen. d20 was originally designed as the engine for D&D, which, while presenting amuch more flexible engine than previous editions, is ultimately more about presenting strong archetypes with clear meta-goals (e.g., level advanement), and less about being incredibly flexible.

Exactly. I like to play D&D... for worlds like the Forgotten Realms, or Midnight. Level progression and limited classes feel right for these worlds.

But when you have the grittiness and murkyness of, say, the Warhammer World, GURPS works much better. At least, for me and my group.

This is all moot, though, as HERO is better than both of them.

Pschaw!

 

[ecliptic]

I would buy GURPS d20.

I wouldn't buy GURPS.

 

[Henry]

Well said- something I wanted to add (seeing Coyote's mention here), is that in d20 you can't just get in a fun little bar fight.

Oh, I beg to differ! d20 Modern has one little feature (flaw some would say) in its system that makes the kind of bar fights you see on TV quite possible.The nonlethal damage of d20 Modern means that characters can punch the heck out of one another for 20 or 30 rounds of combat and all they'll have to show for it is a bunch of brusing and NO hit point loss. In fact, that TV-fiction level of violence is the one thing that the nonlethal damage system DOES make possible, for all it's lack of plausiblity.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I would buy GURPS d20.

I wouldn't buy GURPS.

"GURPS d20"?

Nah. That wouldn't work - the two have radically different design concepts, and trying to port everything that makes GURPS great over to d20 would just create a mess.

I mean, the main attraction of GURPS is the complete freedom in creating characters. d20, on the hand, is based on shoehorning characters into distinct classes and levels. There's just too little overwork for such a conversion to work.

Now, converting d20 settings over to GURPS on the other hand should be easy...

 

[Talon5]

Oh, I beg to differ! d20 Modern has one little feature (flaw some would say) in its system that makes the kind of bar fights you see on TV quite possible.The nonlethal damage of d20 Modern means that characters can punch the heck out of one another for 20 or 30 rounds of combat and all they'll have to show for it is a bunch of brusing and NO hit point loss. In fact, that TV-fiction level of violence is the one thing that the nonlethal damage system DOES make possible, for all it's lack of plausiblity.

I guess I just haven't spent the time learning the system to see that.

d20 Modern appears lacking in a lot of things- realistic fighting rules, automatic weapons fire, I like skills heavy systems so that too is lacking in d20, just to name a few.

Mind you I am not saying that d20 sucks, I am saying that I don't know the system well enough (I only read the books to use for M&M info cross over) to say much more then- it ante my cup of tea.

Don't give up on GURPs- its a cool system and it works well, I will continue to look at d20 Modern, but its just hard to get into knowing there is something that I see as better

(Note- we hardly ever played a D&D esc. GURPs campaign, we only ever tried to pull that off a couple of times in GURPs but have been pretty loyal to D&D.)

 

[mmadsen]

I mean, the main attraction of GURPS is the complete freedom in creating characters. d20, on the hand, is based on shoehorning characters into distinct classes and levels. There's just too little overwork for such a conversion to work.

It depends on what you mean by d20. Mutants & Masterminds (which is an OGL game) takes the core d20 mechanic (a d20 roll, plus bonuses, against a target number) and uses it more consistently than D&D does (e.g., damage is handled via a saving throw), but it doesn't have restrictive classes and levels; it's as free-form as GURPS.

The d20 version of Call of Cthulhu is almost classless -- and you could easily make it totally classless.

There are many, many differences between GURPS and d20 Modern beyond classes and levels:

• GURPS is hyper-detail-oriented (in skills and equipment, if not stats). You don't have a Combat skill, or a Melee Combat skill; you have a Broadsword skill.
• GURPS uses 3d6, not 1d20.
• GURPS keeps attack and defense rolls independent of one another (so "high level" combat becomes means constantly "hitting" but being constantly parried).
• Etc.

Switching GURPS to 1d20, converting active defenses from a separate roll to a modifier to to-hit (analogous to AC/Defense), and broadening the scope of skills (e.g., Melee rather than Broadsword) would totally change the feel of the game -- without removing any of its famed flexibility.

 

[Psion]

GURPS has the BEST character creation system

Um, no.