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D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Take the Purple Dragon Knight / Baneret and, instead of proficiency in diplomacy, give them 1d6 superiority dice and access to the manoeuvre that improves your cha checks plus a couple of the warlord style manoeuvres. It's a minor tweak but one that gets you part way there alongside appropriate feats.
It's a start, the main issue with Second Wind affecting your team is you need a situation where multiple characters need that healing and are in range. d10+level is better than a Healing Word, but worse than a Cure Wounds, and Healing Word is generally an "oh hell!" emergency heal sort of thing.

You can make arguments about Mass Healing Word being outperformed by a Banneret, but it's not really enough- this character couldn't replace a Cleric, and would be less useful I think than someone with the Healer Feat for helping ease the healing burden of a solo Cleric.

Which is really the problem, everything in 5e has to be compared to what a spellcaster can do. If we're making a Warlord who is not a spellcaster, it's apparent that design in 5e is generally martial < magic. The Warlord would probably need to be closer to a caster in power to do what we want them to do, but that's not how the game is built and a lot of people like it that way. I don't, but I understand I'm not exactly the majority opinion.

The attack granting is interesting, because you have to try and take into account what your damage + the damage being granted is. Having played a Battlemaster, there are vanishingly few times where my attacking with a superiority die and some debuff was worse than granting someone else a bonus attack with a maneuver. It basically comes down to someone who can make a big single hit, like a Rogue or a Paladin who will actually dump their spell slots on a random attack and not try to wait for a crit (trust me, there are Paladin players who do that and they drive me nuts, lol).

The same problem would occur with a dedicated class feature for it. You'd have somehow make the Warlord worse at damage than a Fighter (which is hard because the base class doesn't get much more raw damage than anyone else baseline, they rely on making more attacks) so that when they grant attacks, it's better than the Warlord attacking themselves.

The movement granting bonuses have issues since not everyone wants to play on a grid (I do, many don't) and movement powers are not as useful in 5e at this moment. We don't have combat advantage, every spell caster can have great AC if they want it, and there's not a lot of forced movement powers running around- we're basically in 3e territory where people move into base with one another and keep swinging until one or the other falls down, the necessity of combat movement like it was in 4e just doesn't seem to be there. So things like Reorient the Axis would be very situational.

What really made Warlords stand out were with Dailies, IMO. Sure they could heal. Sure they could grant you an attack with bonuses, or offer you bonus initiative, but the main reason to have them, was how they made other people's daily powers more reliable or harder hitting (with the Action Point benefit) or how crazy their own Dailies are. If you were ever in a rough fight and saw a Warlord use Stand the Fallen, it was a huge momentum shift.

In 5e, there's no real budget for things like that. Daily powers are almost exclusively spells. Martials don't get a lot of spells. And would we even want a class that actively buffs spellcasters, when many people think they are already too strong?

So yeah, as others have said, it's not that you couldn't make a 5e Warlord. The issue is, the class would stick out as being not like other classes, and worse, depending on party composition, it might be way worse than just playing a Peace or Twilight Cleric (not even getting into how a given person feels about those subclasses). I don't accept that the Banneret or the Battlemaster are Warlords. But I can see the issues of trying to create a Warlord and having it be this "5th wheel class" that either outperforms existing options or underperforms, based on what the other players are doing. Which isn't a problem for the Bard or Cleric- they can adjust to any party using their basic abilities.

A Warlord in 5e might be like "well, uh, I'm not sure what I'm doing here" especially in the light of so many classes and subclasses being invested in the spell system.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
At page 35:

Gonna last more than six days...
To be fair, Capn... I intended my 'six days' thing to be about threads where posters get together to create a usable Warlord class, not threads about Warlord existence in general. :)

Threads about people just complaining that WotC doesn't give them what they want can last much, much longer than six days on the front page. Six weeks is usually more like it. LOL!
 

Mephista

Adventurer
I already described it above.
  • Warlock chassis. Major subclass is your specific Combat Focus (with ideas like Sapper/sneaky, Skirmisher/frontline attacker, Fusilier/ranged attacker, Knight-Enchanter/magical tactician, Strategos/working through proxies aka "lazy", etc.) Minor subclass is your Leadership Style, e.g. Bravura (Cha-based, high-risk high-reward), Resourceful (Wis-based, better healing and condition mitigation), or Tactical (Int-based, better buffs and damage mitigation)
  • Instead of short-rest spells, short-rest "Strategies" that you can prepare with each short rest. There wouldn't be a ton of strategies, perhaps 20 or so, with some requiring higher Warlord level to prepare
  • Instead of Invocations, you have Tactics, always-on benefits that make sense to never be exhausted and not need resources
  • Still working on what to replace Mystic Arcana with. Perhaps that's where my "gambit" idea should go; as stated above, this is technically back-burner because I have a Summoner homebrew I'm chewing on first.

Strategies recharge with short rests. Taking a leaf from the 5.5e Warlock updates, I'd probably include a feature to refresh your Strategies without a short rest, perhaps with a roll or the like.

It ain't perfect, and a whole lot of it depends on the execution of the Strategies, Tactics, and whatever fills the void left by Mystic Arcana. But I definitely believe it's the best approach to making a full-throated, diverse, well-supported, not brokenly overpowered Warlord.
I thought the entire point of the warlord was so that its not magic. And... you've just given them spells but calling them strategies? How are they different? It seems that they're going to scale up like spells? I mean, that's the whole point of the warlock chasis is that their spells automatically level.

Are you going to have an Eldritch Blast equivalent? What is it? How does having a sword-and-board-warlord or bow-warlord fit in here? I presume that its going to take up Invocation-equivalents, just like blade-lock and agonizing/repelling EB do.

I mean, it doesn't help that a contingent of anti-fans is always eager to come out of the woodwork and tell people who like Warlords that they should sit down, shut up, and enjoy the table-scraps they're so graciously given because their preferences are wrong, invalid, unfit, not really a class, or some other variation of "it's not for me therefore it's not for anyone."
Glass house, throwing stones.

But you're ignoring the rest of the class when you do that. Action surge used on yourself, as a Fighter, is almost always better than using Action Surge on someone else. Indomitable is kinda meh overall, so honestly I don't think that factors in much, but since you get so few uses of it, you'll run out long before you can do much. Second Wind is a hilariously inadequate healing feature--the Banneret already did better than that (giving HP equal to your Fighter level to up to three other targets!) and it was nowhere near enough.
I'm not ignoring the rest of the class. The fighter chasis (not counting asi/feats or subclass) gets the following abilities - fighting style, second wind, action surge, extra attack, Indomitable. That's literally the entire class. There's a number of feats more suited to a support playstyle than damage, so there's no point in discussing them. 1D&D adds weapon mastery stuff, which can be used to support team instead of just yourself.

"But its not as effective!!!" That sounds like an optimizer problem. I don't care about optimzers. I don't play with them. If my group likes playing it and has fun, and its effective enough, does the rest matter? No.

If you're not building a fighter for all damage, then it shouldn't be a surprise when another character is better with the action surge. Second wind isn't enough? Then use some more of the power budget on improving it, or get more uses of it, or something. 1d&d Indomitable is much better than the previous version, and one I've been using for a while now.

Forget banneret. It was badly made, and diffierent attmepts at a thing can be made.
Okay. That might be the start of one single mechanic that could be useful. I'm not seeing how that covers an entire class worth of stuff--nor how this would ever be in any way the better option than just using your own strong features. Which, again, is precisely the problem. The Fighter's base features are already so good, the option of giving them to someone else is mostly pointless.
Of course its one single mechanic. I only talked about what I would do as a level 3, and only in part. Not even the whole of the subclass. Just the bare bones beginning of the archetype.
The point is to showcase how we can turn the core Fighter chasis from being selfish to being a party enabler. Not do everything immediately at level 3. Its something that requires multiple levels as well as feats. Possibly adding in something akin to a superiority die. I don't know everything yet, as its not been designed past the idea stage.

How would it be better? Gee, I don't know, maybe because its something the player is enjoying doing? My goal is to make something that's fun to play and fills a need for my table.

The former is unacceptable by demonstration; the designers could have actually deleted class features via subclasses, but they never, ever have. Hell, they don't even like doing errata, even in places that sorely, direly need it like the PHB Sorcerer subclasses or the Beast Master.
But I'm doing the latter, and you said it was OP. You have not demonstrated how its OP. You're just claiming it without explaining why it is.

That's the catch-22 here. Change nothing except adding sharing, and you've added a worthless option that will never be used because it isn't better than just...not using it. Change things so it's more than just sharing, and you've now made something OP, because you have a floor of "be a strong Fighter who already does competent damage," which you can then exceed by using your features on allies instead.
Or... maybe I find a way that it works together to make a harmonious whole that fulfills the class fantasy for my table and isn't OP. I don't buy into your false dichotomy.


Again, no, it isn't. If the so-called "Warlord Fighter" is simply adding the choice of being allowed to use their selfish features on others, they will still be used selfishly because it is essentially categorically true that using them on yourself is better than using them on anyone else, unless you intentionally and overtly slant the example.
"If I make a selfish, damage focused build, I will categorically be better at using action surges on myself" is a statement that really doesn't need to be said.

But I'm kinda assuming that anyone choosing to play a subclass of mine won't be focused on taking damage options - they'll be taking things like the shield-based reaction FS, or the Inspiring Leader feat, instead of things that directly improve damage. I've already suggested non-selfish Weapon Masteries. Which changes the math drastically, and your personal damage will drop.

The fact that theyre taking a theoretical warlord subclass means they're already doing less damage than their contemporaries.

Optimizers look at the Bladesinger and claim that its best to be used to cast spells normally instead of fight with a blade. But I still see lots of fighting with swords on a bladesinger. Why? Because that's the whole reason that my players take the subclass. The vast majority of players aren't there to optimize party efficienty, they are there to have fun with a specific character concept they have in mind, and want their character to be fun in play.

And the only other option is to DELETE the ability of the "Warlord Fighter" to use those actions on themselves, something that 5e's rules do not support doing and never have.
Again with a false dichotomy.
Oh, no, no. They knew exactly what they were doing. Well, sort of. They knew exactly part of what they were doing, and that part was intentional.

That's why Mearls "joked" about shouting hands back on when he dismissed Warlord as a class concept. That's why they kept pushing out any 4e rules as belonging to the "tactical combat module," which was total vaporware (and most 4e fans could see that literally a year before release). That's why they explicitly said it would be "3e rules with 4e streamlining." This was very intentional. That intentional effort was intensified by various mistakes, I don't deny that. For example, their critical fumble on the Specialties system, where they went absolutely all in on a system they later abandoned, and instead of attempting to fix the issue, they just stopped talking about martial healing. But make no mistake: there were never any bones about this being an intentional effort.
There's a saying called Hazlon's Razor. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Well, saying "stupid" here is a bit of a too strong word here, but its conveys the same vibe. You're ascribing malice to people when they just as likely messed up. Mearls put in a lot of effort to make his own warlord subclass for fighter as well, which leads me to think this entire malice-assumption to be silly.

Which brings me to another point. If you're going to keep bringing up Banneret while simultaneously claiming that the devs were malicious in, well, effectively sabotaging a warlord-fighter subclass. Then wouldn';t that mean that Banneret shouldn't even be something to consider? Why bring it up at all if its effectively sabotaged?
 


James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
This isn't it at early levels though, that is why a fighter is more difficult. They don't have spells, they don't understand how to do other things in combat.

At higher levels when mutli-attack is online attacking with your weapon against resistance is still often the best course of action. It becomes simpler in this regard because 50% of 2d8+6 is still better than using oil or caltrops or alchemists fire or something like that, but that isn't really true or isn't as true at low level.



The DM told him several times that it was splitting because of his hits and he never went to his flask of oil (even after others did) or an unarmed strike.

It went like, well maybe eventually it will start working.



If by that you mean Bludgeoning and not Piercing or Slashing? The answer is yes but not as many as are resistant to the one or both of the other two and I don't think any are immune to bludgeoning. Also more enemies are vulnerable to Bludgeoning than the other two at low level.

This makes Bludgeoning weapons more effective if you are a strength based character at low level, but the number of Greatswords and Longswords exceed the numbers of Mauls and Warhammers by a factor of 10. It is a rare very and usually very experienced player that recognizes this and selects a Warhammer at 1st level.
Hey look, the game I was in where we went from 1 to 9 just went on hiatus. We had a Ranger, a Cleric, a Wizard, and a multiclasses Monk/Fighter/Rogue thing, plus the occasional appearance of our Bard (medical issues + wifey & kids, couldn't be helped).

Here's what I can tell for certain. Likely a third of our fights had enemies resistant to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from non-magical weapons. We had four battles where being able to do fire damage against tough foes was a big deal, one of which was a super large mass battle, and switching from a melee weapon for a torch was not very efficient, as torches are improvised weapons that do 3 fire on average- you could turn off the regeneration, but as our Ranger noted, it wasn't much of a benefit until we had the trollkin beat down to an inch of it's life, because 3 fire without proficiency to hit vs. 9 piercing (+1 short sword, 20 Dex) with +3 proficiency, even in the face of 5 regeneration, as actually more damage.

We once fought creatures vulnerable to fire. We never fought creatures vulnerable to piercing, slashing, bludgeoning, radiant, thunder, lightning, acid, poison or force. We did fight many creatures (oozes and a devil) where force was almost the only thing that would work, which is why my Wizard was an all star.

We had, in fact, two characters with magic warhammers by the time the game went on hiatus- in no way were these better or worse than a magical anything else they could be wielding. We fought wights, bone nagas, oozes, trollkin, evil spellcasters, a devil, a genie, a blood hag, two liches, three undead warlocks, ghost wolves, deep ones, golems, a living sphere of annihilation, and even a shoggotoh, for Hastur's sake (Fhtagn!).

At no time was there any weapon that was any better than any other (other than being magical vs. not- early on we were so hindered by this that our ranger was using a pair of magical daggers that only had bonuses against undead and monstrosities- one was +1 vs. undead, the other was +1 vs. monstrosities; and our monk was using a magic light hammer that's only power was it granted advantage when he spent the first healing surge during a rest).

There were many battles where spells, even cantrips > weapons. So, you know, this all very campaign-dependent.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
In core 5e, 3 ability scores do not factor in combat at all without magic: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma.
One system that, despite all its faults, offered a cool and useful take on this issue was 1st edition Symbaroum!

Meaning you could definitely create the smart or charismatic fighter - a fighter with those mental stats as their "prime" stat
 

Mephista

Adventurer
Take the Purple Dragon Knight / Baneret and, instead of proficiency in diplomacy, give them 1d6 superiority dice and access to the manoeuvre that improves your cha checks plus a couple of the warlord style manoeuvres. It's a minor tweak but one that gets you part way there alongside appropriate feats.
I'm suggesting something similar to banneret, but I don't personally like it as a good starting point. No offense to your idea. Just not a fan of their implementation.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I agree the fighter chassis is a bad basis.

Yet, anytime I’ve seen anyone produce a balanced warlord it gets shouted down by warlord fans. Then they point to obviously overturned warlords and say they are balanced.

The takeaway is that the power budget to produce fan approved warlord is higher than would be balanced in 5e.

The funny thing is I want a warlord too but not all the overturned ones, an actually balanced one (which will mean it can’t do everything a 4e warlord did)
I have not seen this myself. Then again, I haven't actually seen many people directly talk about any particular Warlord option (other than, perhaps, Level Up's. Because, y'know, EnWorld.)

I disagree that the power budget is overtuned. However, I will agree that whatever a proper 5e Warlord cashes out as, it will (almost guaranteed) end up on the powerful side relative to the other martial classes in 5e. That's not necessarily because it is overpowered though. It's more likely because martial classes are almost universally underpowered relative to those that feature inherent spellcasting to some degree. Ranger is the only exception to this rule, where it's a part-caster that ranks very low on the totem pole, but it's also got incredibly limited spells known, and is even worse than Paladin for offloading critical class features (coughhunter'smarkcough) into that spell list.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Because none of the things you suggested are BETTER than just using those features (Action Surge, Second Wind, Indomitable) on yourself. In fact, using them on other people is essentially always inferior. But if you make using them on others better than using them on yourself--when using them on yourself is already powerful--then you will have crossed the line into OP.

That's the catch-22 here.
This is obviously unsound reasoning. Anyone liking this post for how it convinces itself the Warlord cannot be done should retract that like. Obviously it can be done. Anything else is just POV-pushing.

Again, the reason WotC gas not made a Warlock can be many and varied. But "it's impossible" sure ain't one of them.
 

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