Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[tetrasodium]

Sorry but I disagree.

In the feature I wrote in previous posts, the 1 hp followers are just on camp duties, they wont follow in dungeons or perform dangerous tasks. The features also grant a combat-able follower based on the steel defender from the battle smith. It scales just fine to be a valuable asset without stealing anyone spotlight.

A follower with Con + you CHA + 5 times your level HP, with its own action allotment and special actions =/= a stupid owl with no actions but to scout and die. Equating both of them is plain wrong.

If the PC treat human creatures with such disdain AND the DM let them act stupidly, then there could be a problem. But I refuse to even acknowledge that these are such a common occurrence that having a retainer system is just asking for problems.

I dont even know what you are talking about here: " Followers in 5e wound up being too powerful & the ones you are trying to anoint with a crown are so weak their only point is really to stand guard or be an improved 10foot pole till they lemming off''

There are no follower as of now in D&D and the one from my features have built-in reason to no lemming themselves.
Just to repeat myself:

• The weak, ''roleplay'' retainers, wont accept to be used a 10 ft pole.
• The stronger companion is not weak and can do much more than guard the tent (and wont accept to be a landmine detector)

And the mechanical penalty for losing them? How about that: You just lost a level-worth of class feature until you can take a long rest in a settlement. That's the same penalty the beastmaster has for using its beast in stupid ways.

How the spell was handled in previous edition is of no relevance: that edition also had racial penalties, non-favored class penalty, stat drained, burning XP for creating items etc. They were removed because penalties for using your features that arent OP are not fun.

what "camp duties" are you referencing? Can you cite some pages in fifth edition that show what mechanical impact that these "camp duties" have on the game since you keep bringing up the ten foot pole/watch crew NPCs for that one background? I've seen a lot of players with those NPCs in AL games I ran but can't recall them ever bringing up anything that fis what you describe

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

what "camp duties" are you referencing? Can you cite some pages in fifth edition that show what mechanical impact that these "camp duties" have on the game since you keep bringing up the ten foot pole/watch crew NPCs for that one background? I've seen a lot of players with those NPCs in AL games I ran but can't recall them ever bringing up anything that fis what you describe

here's the feature:
You have the service of three retainers loyal to your family. These retainers can be attendants or messengers, and one might be a majordomo. One of your retainers is a noble who serves as your squire, aiding you in exchange for training on his or her own path to knighthood (This person could be your bond.). Your two remaining retainers might include a groom to care for your horse and a servant who polishes your armor (and even helps you put it on).

Your retainers can perform mundane tasks for you, but they do not fight for you, will not follow you into obviously dangerous areas (such as dungeons), and will leave if they are frequently endangered or abused.

Why do they need to have more benefits than that? They are a roleplay feature! Just like a familiar. Sure they can be used to leverage some advantage for you, I guess. But the fact that they have no mechanical impact on the meta-game does not mean that they have no impact whatsoever: they can have a big impact ''in-game''. One retainers can spot the assassin entering your tent, you can send him gather food while you keep watch etc. Not everything as to have a bunch of + attached to it!

What are the mechanical advantage of not aging? Or not having to eat, since 5e is so easy of the food/water necessities? Or being able to speak Thieves Cant or Druidic? Or gaining proficiency with gambling sets or scribe tools? They arent worthless because they dont bring instant, valuable buff to your PC.

Anyway, those are the ''fluff'' part of the feature I wrote. The actual mechanical advantage is gaining the equivalent of a Battlesmith's Steel Defender as ''pet'' in battle.

EDIT: I'll repost MY feature for retainers for high level fighter, because I think you may have missed it the first time.

Spoiler: Companion

Companions
At Xth level, when you finish a long rest in a settlement, you can have a small band of daring initiates ask to join your cause.
They are friendly to you and your companions, and obey your commands. You determine the creatures appearance; your choice has no effect on its game statistics.

You have the service of four retainers. These retainers can be attendants or messengers, and one might be a majordomo. One of your retainers is a Companion who serves at your side in combat, aiding you in exchange for training on his or her own path to fame. See this creature's game statistics in the Companion stat block. Your three remaining retainers might include a groom to care for your horse or a servant who polishes your armor (and even helps you put it on). All retainers but your Companion can perform mundane tasks for you, but they do not fight for you, will not follow you into obviously dangerous areas (such as dungeons), and will leave if they are frequently endangered or abused.

In combat, the Companion shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take one of the actions in its stat block or the Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, or Search action.

The companion follows the same dying rules as a normal character. If it has died within the last hour, you can use a healer's kit as an action to revive it, provided you are within 5 feet of it and succeed on a DC 15 Wis (Medicine) check. The Companion returns to life after 1 minute with all its hit points restored.

At the end of a long rest in a settlement, you can recruit a new retainer or companion unless you already have three retainers and a companion.

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
Medium humanoid, neutral
Armor Class 15 (chain shirt)
Hit Points equal the companion's Constitution modifier + your Intelligence OR charisma modifier + five times your level in this class
Speed 40 ft.
14 (+2)	12 (+1)	14 (+2)	4 (-3)	10 (+0)	6 (-2)
Saving Throws Dex +3, Con +4
Skills Athletics +4, Perception +4
Damage Immunities
Condition Immunities charmed, exhaustion
Senses , passive Perception 14
Languages understands the languages you speak
Might of the Master. The following numbers increase by 1 when your proficiency bonus increases by 1: the companion skill and saving throw bonuses (above), the bonuses to hit and damage of its rend attack, and the number of hit points restored by its first aid action (below). Vigilant. The companion can't be surprised.
Actions (Requires Your Bonus Action)
Longsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target you can see. Hit: 1d8 + 2 slashing damage. First Aid (3/Day). The companion restore 2d8 + 2 hit points to itself or to one ally within 5 feet of it.
Reactions
Deflect Attack. The companion imposes disadvantage on the attack roll of one creature it can see that is within 5 feet of it, provided the attack roll is against a creature other than the defender.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The familiar is a strong class feature - but it isn't a silent parrot drone. It's only +3 to stealth, meaning that it's going to get caught fairly regularly. Also after about second level enemies aren't stupid - if they see an owl doing weird things they know it's a familiar, although it makes a great eye in the sky. The Pact of the Chain Warlock's Imp is a whole different story - it's both intelligent and invisible.

Not so. For a few reasons. Firstly Bards get very limited spell choices... they can’t be good at everything. While the fighter gets more feats than the other classes.

This comparison is ridiculous; the fighter doesn't have more feats than anyone else until sixth level. Meanwhile the Bard has two cantrips and four other spells (one each for healing, exploration, offence, and social) at first level. By sixth level, the first time the fighter has a single feat more than anyone else, the bard has three cantrips and nine spells of higher level. Second by sixth level the bard has expertise on two skills and has inspiration on a short rest - meaning that they can shine by helping anyone else shine on any skill.

The fighter can't be good at everything - remember they only have a single extra feat. The bard can have advantages at all three pillars both with spells intended for them and with hybrids (is invisibility an exploration spell, a combat spell, a social spell, or all three)?

There are several ways a fighter character can get Minor image or friends - sun elf for instance, at very little cost to their fighting ability. Background also requires little cost to fighting ability.

The measure of contributing to exploration or roleplay is not to be ‘better than a bard’, it is to be able to meaningfully contribute. A bard player would be justifiably upset if a fighter was upstaging their role. The point I made is that a fighter character can influence people in the absence of a bard. My example was merely to suggest a first level fighter could be as good a face as a bard at first level - a point which I stand by.

We can argue over whether x class is better at y. But if you fundamentally deny that a fighter character can achieve a reasonable results in the exploration and influencing pillars then Im not sure you’re playing the same game.

That all depends on what you consider "able to meaningfully contribute". A fighter starts off I think as without exception the worst class at both the exploration and the social pillars - their primary stat (STR) is one of the two weakest (alongside INT), they have the joint fewest skills in the game, and things like their tendency to wear heavy armour makes them both slow and clanky. But yes they can reach competent even if they can never reach great. Your example of burning a feat for expertise in persuasion puts the fighter on a level with a sorcerer with the persuasion skill and nothing beyond that. By going flat out the fighter can reach second tier but not shining.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The example was to show that there's already features that generate instant effects that would be improbable in specific setting, not that there's features instantly gathering followers. In Barovia or Darksun, the gods are powerless: suddenly a temple of said god appears with the full panoply of powers. It makes no sense in-setting, but its there. It can even become permanent!

Why did you allow a cleric in the setting in the first place then? Barovia I think is a grey area (there are divine powers there, just small) but Darksun starts with "the gods are dead" so you can't have a cleric to begin with.

And, even if you don't accept that, removing a single spell from the cleric spell list is not like removing an entire class feature.

But that is a personal preference. Its not my favorite version of the high level fighter neither, but its a possibility. The noble already give 3 powerless retainers, beastmasters, chain warlocks, wildfire druids, battlesmith artificers all have suddenly a follower by the means of magic or mundane feature.

Which works for them (sort of) for various reasons.

The Battlesmith made their companion. The Chain Lock or wizard (or anyone with find familiar) cast a spell to summon a being, the beastmaster exists.

But none of them are a trained humanoid who has a full personality and just randomly heard of your fighter and decided he or she is the best thing since sliced bread. That is the part that bothers me. Who is this initiate? Why do they suddenly appear and insist on risking their life next to you?

There's no need to have 10 to 20. My idea would be 2-3 non-combat retainers (like the Noble feature) and 1 ''pick from two'' companion, like the beastmaster. At high level, say 11+.

Example:

Companions
At Xth level, when you finish a long rest in a settlement, you can have a small band of daring initiates ask to join your cause.
They are friendly to you and your companions, and obey your commands. You determine the creatures appearance; your choice has no effect on its game statistics.

You have the service of four retainers. These retainers can be attendants or messengers, and one might be a majordomo. One of your retainers is a Companion who serves at your side in combat, aiding you in exchange for training on his or her own path to fame. See this creature's game statistics in the Companion stat block. Your three remaining retainers might include a groom to care for your horse or a servant who polishes your armor (and even helps you put it on). All retainers but your Companion can perform mundane tasks for you, but they do not fight for you, will not follow you into obviously dangerous areas (such as dungeons), and will leave if they are frequently endangered or abused.

In combat, the Companion shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take one of the actions in its stat block or the Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, or Search action.

The companion follows the same dying rules as a normal character. If it has died within the last hour, you can use a healer's kit as an action to revive it, provided you are within 5 feet of it and succeed on a DC 15 Wis (Medicine) check. The Companion returns to life after 1 minute with all its hit points restored.

At the end of a long rest in a settlement, you can recruit a new retainer or companion unless you already have three retainers and a companion.

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
Medium humanoid, neutral												Armor Class 15 (chain shirt)						Hit Points equal the companion's Constitution modifier + your Intelligence OR charisma modifier + five times your level in this class						Speed 40 ft.												14 (+2)	12 (+1)	14 (+2)	4 (-3)	10 (+0)	6 (-2)							Saving Throws Dex +3, Con +4						Skills Athletics +4, Perception +4						Damage Immunities						Condition Immunities charmed, exhaustion						Senses , passive Perception 14						Languages understands the languages you speak																		Might of the Master. The following numbers increase by 1 when your proficiency bonus increases by 1: the companion skill and saving throw bonuses (above), the bonuses to hit and damage of its rend attack, and the number of hit points restored by its first aid action (below). Vigilant. The companion can't be surprised.						Actions (Requires Your Bonus Action)						Longsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target you can see. Hit: 1d8 + 2 slashing damage. First Aid (3/Day). The companion restore 2d8 + 2 hit points to itself or to one ally within 5 feet of it.						Reactions						Deflect Attack. The companion imposes disadvantage on the attack roll of one creature it can see that is within 5 feet of it, provided the attack roll is against a creature other than the defender.

Wait, what?

A groom or a majordomo? Messengers? Are they working for free because that sounds like something you pay for.

I also wonder why someone who has nearly 60 hp, three healing potions, a reaction ability to grant disadvantage, and an attack that does an average of 10 damage would be worried about going into an "obviously dangerous location like a dungeon." This companion is stronger than most third level characters. Might even give a 5th level a run for their money.

Edit: Ah, I missed it while skimming. You get a few people who are free labor for the rest of their lives, and then one guy willing to die for you.

Does this really happens all that much?

I think its one of those theoric problem seen on the internet and not much at the table, and even when it does happen at the table, it is quickly dealt with with a mature discussion.

and if the table is actually ok with sacrificing followers left and right because they can and the DM does not mind, more power to them.

I honestly would say not really.

I mean, sure, I often ask my familiar to scout ahead, and I have put her in many dangerous situations. I have always thanked her profusely and offered her many rewards for service above and beyond the neccessary (she is a sprite for my Feylock) and actively feel indebted to her for her assistance in all matters.

I have only once seen someone try and use a familiar as bait, very early on, and that was when they learned that dire wolves have a 50 ft movement speed and cats have a 30 ft speed.

Well, completely off-topic, but IME no, but I hear about it in other groups. People use familiars in combat for their help action, send them forward to trigger ambushes, etc. as fodder. Why? Because for 10 gp and 10 minutes, you get the familiar back. Easy-peasy lemon squeezy.

Also, we added it but that is also because having a familiar gives the PC temporary HP equal to their character level after a long rest. We added it because we wanted to more represent the spell from 1E where it granted HP and you lost something if they died.

Nit pick, 10 gp and an hour and 10 minutes.

I do like the idea of giving some temp hp. That has some cool applications.

 

[Asisreo]

The fighter can't be good at everything - remember they only have a single extra feat.

Fighters have 2 extra feats as they get one at 6th and one at 14th. That makes a total of 7 possible feats directly from the class list. Of course, it's expected that 3 of those go into maximizing your 2 highest ability scores and it's usually best to get them as early as possible (meaning they get their "extra" feat at around 12th level after maxing their 2 ability scores).

A rogue is the only other class with 1 extra ASI/feat.

Also, a bard is sorta MAD. They are craving good Charisma, Dexterity, and Constitution since Constitution is very important for a concentration-based spellcaster like the bard.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Following up on the retainer thing. I think this follows my thoughts on it pretty well.

In the game with my Feylock, we are running a campaign where the focus is on our group leading and rebuilding a town destroyed by the apocalypse. (Modern setting, magic came in and messed everything up, we are scrambling to survive)

My Feylock, The Zealot Barbarian and the Monk who is the leader of our armed forces (technically) have an army to call on. But we earned that. We helped these people. And while the Monk is officially in charge of the army, my Feylock is in charge of the purse strings, food supply, booze, and pretty much any social aspect of the city. While the Barbarian is our High Priestess and she has gotten enough divine intervention rolls that literally if she says "the gods are with me" we just all accept that as a fact, because it has been true at least eight seperate times where they directly stepped in and said "we back her"

So, it all follows. We have followers because we helped people and earned followers. It doesn't sit right with me to be just handed followers for no reason. Just, "Hey, this is Ted, he will serve you to the death now. Don't worry about where he came from"

It just bothers my sense of realism. NPCs should have motivations beyond wanting to serve the fighter (and for some reason not the party, since it is the fighter's feature)

 

[Chaosmancer]

Fighters have 2 extra feats as they get one at 6th and one at 14th. That makes a total of 7 possible feats directly from the class list. Of course, it's expected that 3 of those go into maximizing your 2 highest ability scores and it's usually best to get them as early as possible (meaning they get their "extra" feat at around 12th level after maxing their 2 ability scores).

A rogue is the only other class with 1 extra ASI/feat.

Also, a bard is sorta MAD. They are craving good Charisma, Dexterity, and Constitution since Constitution is very important for a concentration-based spellcaster like the bard.

They were measuring from 6th level down, so the 14th level feat doesn't really come into play there

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Why did you allow a cleric in the setting in the first place then? Barovia I think is a grey area (there are divine powers there, just small) but Darksun starts with "the gods are dead" so you can't have a cleric to begin with.

The example of Barovia wasnt mine. It was just to point out that there will always be features that clash with the setting themes and that Dm who are not ok with those features stretching the thematics or the common sense of their setting can (and must) revise those feature to fit their setting by discuss

A groom or a majordomo? Messengers? Are they working for free because that sounds like something you pay for.

That's feature from an existing background, yes. They do work for free.

You get a few people who are free labor for the rest of their lives, and then one guy willing to die for you.

Yup, its exactly a rewrite of the Noble (knight) background's feature and the Battlesmith level 3 feature: Steel Defender. So I guess that if a 1/2 spellcaster with 2 attacks using the same stat as its spellcasting feature can have those at 3rd level, a level 15+ fighter with them should be too much.

I get that the fact that they spawn from nowhere is irritating, but since the artificer can craft a robot from nothing in 8 hours in the middle of a dungeon and a ranger can find and tame a wolf in 8 hours in any environment, I guess having the 15+ level fighter having to spend 8 hour in a specific location to gain 3 useless mooks and a pet-man can probably find some in-setting justification for them.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyway. I'll end this conversation here It goes for you too @tetrasodium

I was just explaining HOW it COULD BE done. I'm not too hot on stronghold/retainers built-in the fighter myself: one of A5E new features will probably be a warlord class that can interact better with those (and mass combat?) than any fighter.

I'd rather polish the fighter in its role as the king of combat, and add a few Exploration features, like I did in my Advanced Fighter thread: bonus against forced march and extreme temperature related exhaustion, equipment enhancing bonus, tool bonus etc.

Let's move past that particular topic, shall we?

 

[Garthanos]

I don't know if this project is waiting 5 years.

-----

I think the best course of action is to create 5 subclasses for the fighter. They would range from the mundane to downright overt supernatural.

My choices would be

1. The Fighter-Lord
   • Type: Mundane
   • Features: Apprentice, Choice of Magical Ally, Bonus Charisma
2. The Mastermind Fighter
   • Type: Mundane
   • Features: Maneuvers, Bonus skills and Expertise, "Just as Planned"
3. The Action Hero
   • Type: Slightly Superhuman
   • Features: More Action Surge. 2 Action Surge in a turn, Movie logic
4. The Mythic Fighter
   • Type: Superhuman
   • Features: Maneuvers, d20 superiority dice. Ability scores over 20.
5. The Chosen One (Anime Fighter)
   • Type: Practically magic
   • Features: Flash Step, Afterimages, Cutting spells in half, Theme Music

So here is a concrete plan.

At level 1 you pick a profession:
Explorer
Ruler
Hero
Warlord
Cuthroat Merc

These give you access to talents. You gain 1 Talent per fighter level.

These explain why you fight, not how you fight.

T1 abilities are similar to "background" abilities from 5e already.

T2 abilities unlock at level 5. They are a step up; similar in impact to level 3-4 utility spells. Background features, writ large, at the least.

At level 11 you may pick an epic destiny. This is your destiny, not where you are, but where you are going.

Demigod
Chosen One
Dark Wanderer
Reborn King of Legend
Divine Incarnation
Supernatural Warrior
Christmas Tree

You aren't a demigod when you start the path; you are when you finish it.

These unlock T3 abilities. These compete with level 6 and 7 and 8 utility spells.

At level 17 your destiny unlocks. T4 abilities unlock, which are world shaking. They compete with level 9 utility spells. A returned ruler might be able to raise a host of 1000s of soldiers (or 100s of ghosts, say) to do a task as one such ability.

The goal is that these abilities are not damage, but utility.

At-will Jump is useful in combat, but it doesn't directly kill things.

This framework permits you to have a coherant reason why you can do extraordinary things. You continue being a fighter.

Smashing these together and or elaborate them and it sounds pretty badass

 

[tetrasodium]

They are a roleplay feature!

No... This is a roleplay feature
View attachment 124826
This is a mechanical feature in designspace reserved for mechanical features
View attachment 124827
Roleplay features are great, but they are a thousand percent wrong when they are implemented as a mechanical feature. Unfortunately WotC does this kind of thing a lot in 5e & it should absolutely be avoided in A5e or whatever it winds up being called

Why did you allow a cleric in the setting in the first place then? Barovia I think is a grey area (there are divine powers there, just small) but Darksun starts with "the gods are dead" so you can't have a cleric to begin with.

And, even if you don't accept that, removing a single spell from the cleric spell list is not like removing an entire class feature.

Ravenloft has always been willing to accept clerics & other divine casters who continue being able to cast their spells with some limits/corruptions on spells that were sadly not updated to 5e in CoS, but the reality has the potential to be

Spoiler: -much- worse

-Ravenloft Campaign setting Pg50 just before it goes into a bit on the various churches(faiths) present in Ravenloft

Unfortunately wotc faerunized it in CoS where they don't really even explain the Dark Powers despite namedropping them a bajillion times