D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[nevin]

perhaps. Later I'll go back through the thread.

 

[FrogReaver]

perhaps. Later I'll go back through the thread.

I am curious what I said that made you think I meant that, so if you come across it, let me know. Gotta know how badly I really worded things.

 

[Garthanos]

Well take the Cavalier subclass. It's probably the most effective defender 5e has.

And a level 1 4e fighter does many things you cannot do with that till level 18... and its abilities are in conflict with things which should be built on top of the design is patch work and bad. Shrug I can see reasons for not playing it that are unrelated to the fantasy. A 4e fighter can with only a small portion of its character design choices be a wall of steel nearly impossible to run past at level 1 and painful if you try.

 

[Oofta]

Not only another thread raised from the dead, but "4E is better" baiting? It's a two-fer!

 

[James Gasik]

4e, like any game or edition, is better at the things it's better at (class balance, tactical combat, long adventuring days, lots of character building options). And it's worse at the things it's not so good at (exploration, doing things that don't involve combat).

If you're the kind of player that likes strategic in-depth combats, deep character progression, and prefer using bespoke skills and abilities to deal with challenges- 4e can really be the game for you. I enjoyed it, and my groups also did.

But at the same token, if you want to run funhouse dungeons, in-depth political campaigns, and player goals that don't involve the endless treadmill of fight powerful enemies > gain treasure > turn treasure into character power > fight more powerful enemies, 4e is likely not the game for you.

But that doesn't mean that other editions are incapable of doing these things (just as 4e isn't incapable of the above), it's just that wasn't as large a focus for the design team, and so the DM may have to put in more work to make the magic happen.

 

[Bluenose]

But at the same token, if you want to run funhouse dungeons, in-depth political campaigns, and player goals that don't involve the endless treadmill of fight powerful enemies > gain treasure > turn treasure into character power > fight more powerful enemies, 4e is likely not the game for you.

Is any edition of D&D good for political campaigns? At moss there are some subsystems outside the core rules that do a bit; and they don't always interact well with the main rules. I don't think 5e has anything along those lines.

 

[Zardnaar]

Is any edition of D&D good for political campaigns? At moss there are some subsystems outside the core rules that do a bit; and they don't always interact well with the main rules. I don't think 5e has anything along those lines.

B/X or BECMI and 2E are about the best it gets.

 

[Oofta]

Is any edition of D&D good for political campaigns? At moss there are some subsystems outside the core rules that do a bit; and they don't always interact well with the main rules. I don't think 5e has anything along those lines.

It's certainly doesn't have much in the way of rules support. But gamifying political influence has it's own drawbacks. No game can do everything, no combination of rules or lack of rules is going to be the best for everyone. Just like every edition of D&D has strengths and weaknesses.

I personally don't want significant rules for social interactions beyond the skills and checks we currently have for a few reasons. I'd play a different game if that's what I wanted, I'm sure if I really wanted it there's some 3PP out there, I'd rather have a freeform system. So for me a light touch is best.

So at best I would ignore in-depth rules for political machinations, at worst I'd get bored dealing with them as a player because having, as an example, some sort of point influence system would change the nature of the game in a way I wouldn't enjoy.

 

[James Gasik]

Is any edition of D&D good for political campaigns? At moss there are some subsystems outside the core rules that do a bit; and they don't always interact well with the main rules. I don't think 5e has anything along those lines.

It's a fair point, though I will say that I did play in a 2e political campaign and those random bonuses to NPC interactions from Kits came in handy a lot more than I thought they would, and our Swashbuckler's ability to "find trouble" was really useful.

Also, 2e had a lot of very useful Non-Weapon Proficiencies for almost any type of game you wanted to run, and you could start with quite a few. The slow rate of acquisition for new proficiency slots, on the other hand, wasn't so great.