D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Bard

[Weiley31]

This allows some really cool new builds, like a Necromatic Bard, that doesn't have to use magical secrets to get necromancy spells.

Hmm, necromantic dancing bard with red leather armor?

Dirge Singer.
(Non-Eberron version)

 

[Marandahir]

You are a full caster with access to the same Primal spells. Who also happens to have expertise in 2-4 skills vs Ranger's 1 expertise pick.

It's not the Ranger who has exploration functionality here.

(If you feel like you're missing out on weapon mastery + fighting style, take 1 level in Fighter. Or just cast Conjure Animals.)

Skills are not the be-all and end-all of the Exploration Pillar.

First off, the Ranger has 3 Skill proficiencies, same as the Bard. They have Expertise in 1 skill at first level and another at 9th level, while yes the Bard gets 2 at 2nd level and another 2 at 9th level, plus half-proficiency at 2nd level in all non-proficient skills. But the Ranger also gets at level 1 advantage on nearly all relevant nature and survival checks for wherever they are, barring instantaneous travel to an unexpected biome without a long rest inbetween (the ability to prep 2 at 1st and 4 at 9th per long rest means as long as you know what biomes you might cross over into, you're in good shape). That's a heck of a lot stronger than expertise. You almost can skip proficiency in those skills! Yes, the Bard has full spell casting which greatly expands their repertoire of spell-supported exploration, but Rangers make up for all of this with both half-casting and a host of other exploration tier-supportive features:

2nd level Bonus Action Hunter's Mark, Wis mod/LR, no spell slots needed, though you can also pump it with higher spell slots to crank up the targeted DPS. But this is also an exploration feature as you have Advantage on Perception/Survival checks to find the target as well, so you're a master of both understanding the landscape you're in and knowing how to catch a particular foe you have in mind.

6th level +10 Walk Speed, plus gain equivalent Swim and Climb Speeds. No more need to make skill checks to swim or climb, and you're moving far faster than the valour bard across the battlefield and landscape.
10th level Action to gain THP = 1d8+Wis mod, Wis mod/LR, and SR recovery from exhaustion levels instead of LR.
14th level Bonus Action invisibility, Wis mod/LR.
18th level Blindsight

And of course, Rangers have the relevant martial weapon training and armour training from the get-go - Valour Bard has to wait for 3rd level here, not to mention weapon mastery and fighting styles, which the Bard never gets. Oh, and Extra Attack at 5th instead of 6th. And Conjure Volley, Conjure Barrage, and Foe Slayer improving your damage output at the relevant levels, too.

And THEN you add the subclass features for the Ranger.

Yes, the Bard gets a lot of great goodies. Yes, there's now a primal flavoured bard that can do rangery fighting things while also being a full caster. There's also the martially focused Warden Druid, who can do Rangery things too, but again, doesn't have the sheer mastery of the exploration tier that the Ranger has.

This really comes down to how much your game features or allows the players to play in the sandbox of the Exploration Pillar. Sure, if your table fast travels from safe zone inn/shop/town to boss fight and back, then your only way of comparing the Ranger to related character builds is via spell variety and levels and DPS. The Ranger still has higher DPS than the Bard and Druid, but they're always going to lose out on spell variety to a full caster like the Bard or Druid. And that may make them seem weak and relatively useless when you could have a Bard and a Rogue in your party instead. But the Ranger does things that other classes can't in the Exploration Tier, and its other things they can opt into earlier and faster with fewer trade offs. It's main trade off is spellcasting, which is always going to be a tough thing to balance, but I think they've done an exceptional job with the Ranger here, even while opening Bards up to play with related Primal spell toys -- which I'm all for!

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

the Ranger also gets at level 1 advantage on nearly all relevant nature and survival checks

You get advantage to Int(Nature) checks, which is using your worst stat so whatever. Your secondary stat, Wis(Survival) get advantage ONLY to tracking.

2nd level Bonus Action Hunter's Mark

You think Hunter's Mark is worth wasting your concentration slot on..?

6th level +10 Walk Speed, plus gain equivalent Swim and Climb Speeds. No more need to make skill checks to swim or climb

That is not what it means. It means you can climb 30ft per move, instead of 15ft. That is all it does.

Look, go read Ranger over again, and imagine what a full caster can do.

 

[Marandahir]

They don't. You get advantage to Int(Nature) checks, which is using your worst stat so whatever. Your secondary stat, Wis(Survival) get advantage ONLY to tracking.


You think Hunter's Mark is worth wasting your concentration slot on..?


That is not what it means. It means you can climb 30ft per move, instead of 15ft. That is all it does.

Look, go read Ranger over again, and imagine what a full caster can do.

Sorry, you're right about the half speed; for some reason I had it in my mind that swimming and climbing required constant skill checks if you didn't have an associated speed. That's not in the Ranger block though, it's in the glossary. And the Ranger gets 40ft walking, climbing, and swimming at 6th while the Valour Bard is still swimming and climbing at 15ft and walking at 30ft.

The full caster may be spending their precious spell slots on trying to replicate these. But also remember that the Valour Bard can only replace a prepared spell 1 per level up, while the Ranger can replace 1 every long rest, so while yeah, the Bard has more spells and spell slots and higher level ones to boot, and access to way more variety of spells by 10th level, the Bard's still stuck with their choices for the most part, which locks them in in certain ways that means they just aren't going to be prepared to cover all these situations unless they're spending all their spells prepared on trying to replicate the features of the Ranger by burning spell slots -- features the Ranger doesn't have to use spell slots on, and often doesn't even need a rest at all to recharge because they're at-will features.

The advantage to tracking with Survival and knowledge (Nature) about the terrain you're in are 90% of what you need to survive there. And with Hunter's Mark, advantage to track a specific foe no matter where they are. Also, stop dumping Int. Everyone can use a bit of it. I wouldn't mind it be to all Survival and Nature checks in the terrain, though. I don't think that would hurt too much. I think the idea was to make it so that there was still a chance of failure for the Ranger while doing their fun exploration side of the game.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The advantage to tracking with Survival and knowledge (Nature) about the terrain you're in are 90% of what you need to survive there. And with Hunter's Mark, advantage to track a specific foe no matter where they are. Also, stop dumping Int. Everyone can use a bit of it. I wouldn't mind it be to all Survival and Nature checks in the terrain, though. I don't think that would hurt too much. I think the idea was to make it so that there was still a chance of failure for the Ranger while doing their fun exploration side of the game.

Tracking a specific enemy you have already been in combat with is not something I see almost ever in exploration. I can literally only think of a single time it has even come up in the last ten years, and no one was playing a ranger in that game (I used mind spike to get the same effect)

And honestly, if you have more diverse challenges for exploration (you should) then the Jack of All trades is a VERY powerful ability, that gives you boosts to athletics, acrobatics, stealth, sleight of hand, history, religion, nature, carpentry, masonry, land vehicles, water vehicles... it is perhaps more powerful than you give it credit for compared to tracking and Knowledge about the terrain.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

A bard spell list is a TERRIBLE way to represent what you want, and the only way this could be a better version was if they could access all the lists sooner, which I think would be a bit too much.

A spell list thematic to the class that borrows from the contents of the other spell lists represents exactly what I want. Choosing to be a bargain basement cleric, a store-brand druid, or yet another arcanist with the same set of arcanist spells as three other classes, would be the terrible way to represent what I want.

As they prune away so many of the other things I hated about the prior playtest materials, the Arcane, Divine, Primal spell list scheme (that blunt solution to a non-existent problem) nevertheless persists. I guess I'll just have more ire to focus on it now.

 

[Chaosmancer]

A spell list thematic to the class that borrows from the contents of the other spell lists represents exactly what I want. Choosing to be a bargain basement cleric, a store-brand druid, or yet another arcanist with the same set of arcanist spells as three other classes, would be the terrible way to represent what I want.

As they prune away so many of the other things I hated about the prior playtest materials, the Arcane, Divine, Primal spell list scheme (that blunt solution to a non-existent problem) nevertheless persists. I guess I'll just have more ire to focus on it now.

So instead of three bards meeting at a bar, and all three of them having vastly different options in what they can do, you want them to meet at a bar and all three have the exact same options, to represent their ability to just grab what magic they need.

Maybe your bard isn't a bargain basement cleric, maybe they are a close-down sale paladin. Maybe your bard isn't a store-brand druid, but garage sale ranger instead. The spell list alone does not define a class. Bards are going to be bards, there is no getting away from that. But the ability to have three bards, with the same subclass, meet and have completely different power sources and spell lists? That is amazing.

Much like right now if you say "I'm playing a Warlock" and people ask if it is tome, chain or blade, you are going to start saying "I'm playing a bard" and people are going to ask "What kind?" Because even if you say you are a Divine Bard, a Divine Glamour Bard is going to play much different than a Divine Dance Bard. They are going to have the ultimate versatility as a class.

 

[Marandahir]

Tracking a specific enemy you have already been in combat with is not something I see almost ever in exploration. I can literally only think of a single time it has even come up in the last ten years, and no one was playing a ranger in that game (I used mind spike to get the same effect)

And honestly, if you have more diverse challenges for exploration (you should) then the Jack of All trades is a VERY powerful ability, that gives you boosts to athletics, acrobatics, stealth, sleight of hand, history, religion, nature, carpentry, masonry, land vehicles, water vehicles... it is perhaps more powerful than you give it credit for compared to tracking and Knowledge about the terrain.

I love Jack of Trades. I don’t like having to push back on Bard abilities I think are great.

I also think the Ranger could get more — more of their Link-esque stamina exploration features, and earlier. I think the solution is broaden Deft Explorer, not narrow Bard spell lists.

The Arcane/Divine/Primal(/Psionic?) Bard split is a brilliant piece of storytelling that has cracked open the concept of the Bard in a way I never predicted but adore. It may mean enhancing other classes to ensure niche protection. But I don’t think a single build of Bard explicitly replaces all Rangers. It emulates them, but it’s different…

 

[WanderingMystic]

While I can see why other people like the options this gives you, on a personal level I just don't like the ability to choose what magic school you pick your spells from at first level. I want my bard to have charm like abilities regardless of what spell list I can choose from and most charm spells are arcane. So if I want my bard to have even 1 healing spells before 10th level I have to take primal or divine and miss out on all of the other spells I want.

If you could at 3rd or even 5th level start picking 1 or two spells from another list then it would tolerable.

 

[Marandahir]

While I can see why other people like the options this gives you, on a personal level I just don't like the ability to choose what magic school you pick your spells from at first level. I want my bard to have charm like abilities regardless of what spell list I can choose from and most charm spells are arcane. So if I want my bard to have even 1 healing spells before 10th level I have to take primal or divine and miss out on all of the other spells I want.

If you could at 3rd or even 5th level start picking 1 or two spells from another list then it would tolerable.

Maybe the Magical Discoveries feature from College of Lore could be gimped by all Bards?

I do think part of the reason for not giving just all from the get go is to avoid options paralysis but Lore exists for those who just can’t wait for 10th level…