Planescape Planescape - what would you like to see?

[Tequila Sunrise]

To be fair, your plot outline was about on par with many of the PS mini adventures from the boxed sets

Haha, true enough.

My thinking was option 3) the threat/dilemma introduced in the first adventure is so great, and the answers are only on the planes, that of course the players go after it. But maybe that's a bit too close to the DM dragging the players in, as you point out.

No, I think that's legitimate. What I meant by a DM 'dragging a character into the campaign' is feeling like s/he has to create all kinds of specific hooks just for that character whose player says 'My character has no reason to participate in this adventure/campagn.'

Including a couple of widely-applicable hooks in every adventure is the DM's responsibility; in a typical D&D game, those hooks are usually gold, glory, and/or Being a Hero. A DM might also include character-specific hooks, but that's going above and beyond, IMO. Anyhow, a player's responsibility is to create a character who will get hooked by one of those widely-applicable hooks. A PS character should be ready to be hooked by exploration, intrigue, and/or the War of Ideas; even if the player can't be bothered to read up on the PS setting.

I think it was Monte Cook who wrote a Dungeon column a few years back, saying "If a player says that his character has no reason to go adventuring, the proper response is 'Well, we'll see you when we return then.'" And that's all I was getting at with my 'dragging PCs into the campaign' comment.

I guess my thoughts are also colored by the sorts of gamers I've played with...they are the sorts when I ask "what sort of D&D game do you want to play?" typically answer "D&D you know, a little bit of everything." And also the same type of gamers who don't put a lot of thought into party creation from a story standpoint. Perhaps that is in part because I usually don't force the issue and tend to be very laid back when running games.

I'm actually curious what sort of anti-Planescape adventure feedback you've gotten in the past? Is it of the "don't get Mieville in my Tolkien!" sort of complaining?

No, nothing so literate. My experiences have probably been similar to yours; lots of beer n' pretzel players who don't put much thought into their characters' stories.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

And, from a personal opinion standpoint, I agree with you that Faction War was not a good adventure nor do I use it (or it's fallout) when I run PS games. I guess I'm thinking of published product, whether WotC or license, in the PS setting....how do they treat Faction War (and the DMG2 Sigil writeup)? Pretend it never happened?

In the unlikely event that we get an official PS update, I'd be happy with either that long-awaited follow-up module, a fast-forward in the timeline that reinstates the factions, or to simply pretend the FW never happened.

I myself am a fan of all-out reboots, though franchise-owners everywhere seem to be loath to use them, because I'm unusual in this attitude I guess. And I'm not even talking about some Romulan captain going back in time to change history -- I'd actually prefer a company to just say "This is the new Planescape; it's inspired and thematically akin to the original, but some details are different. It's not a continuation or a jump forward in the timeline -- it's simply an alternate take on the setting to go with the new edition." I think I started a PS thread a year or two ago in which you read a bit of my ranting about how some of the factions seem rather fragile in the long-term.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION]
I like how you framed that question, "What belief do you have that you want to change the world with?"

When players pick factions, I tend to think of them as arenas of thought that player would like to explore or be challenged in. For an easy example, take the Mercykillers... A player who wants to play a Mercykillers is saying that the belief they want to change the world with is Justice. This a que for the DM about the sorts of thematic conflicts that are ideal for this character:

Justice...at what cost?
*Whose* justice
Justice vs. vengeance
Is Justice really blind? Do intent & circumstance matter?

And so on. Actually, in this hypothetical 5e Planescape we're talking about, I think these sorts of conflicts should be spelled out for the DM as a sort of brainstorm/checklist for adventures.

 

[Quickleaf]

In the unlikely event that we get an official PS update, I'd be happy with either that long-awaited follow-up module, a fast-forward in the timeline that reinstates the factions, or to simply pretend the FW never happened.

I'm really curious about this rumored sequel to Faction War. I've been searching the net but have only found some hints to it in forums, no official interviews or statements. Would be nice to read with my own eyes.

I myself am a fan of all-out reboots, though franchise-owners everywhere seem to be loath to use them, because I'm unusual in this attitude I guess. And I'm not even talking about some Romulan captain going back in time to change history -- I'd actually prefer a company to just say "This is the new Planescape; it's inspired and thematically akin to the original, but some details are different. It's not a continuation or a jump forward in the timeline -- it's simply an alternate take on the setting to go with the new edition." I think I started a PS thread a year or two ago in which you read a bit of my ranting about how some of the factions seem rather fragile in the long-term.

While I havent checked out Numenera, Monte seems to think there are overlaps between his new setting and PS. Heck, the new video game is called Torment: Tides of Numenera and features your protagonist as one of the cast off soul shells of the Nameless One IIRC.

 

[Shemeska]

I'm really curious about this rumored sequel to Faction War. I've been searching the net but have only found some hints to it in forums, no official interviews or statements. Would be nice to read with my own eyes.

There was an intent to follow up on Faction War and eventually bring the Factions fully back. There was at one point a 'City of Doors' box set on TSR's release schedule, but ultimately material that was produced for that was folded into the city details section of 'Faction War'.

It would be great to mine the heads of those who might have written that had TSR/WotC continued down that road, just to see where they might have gone.

 

[I'm A Banana]

[MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION]
I like how you framed that question, "What belief do you have that you want to change the world with?"

When players pick factions, I tend to think of them as arenas of thought that player would like to explore or be challenged in. For an easy example, take the Mercykillers... A player who wants to play a Mercykillers is saying that the belief they want to change the world with is Justice. This a que for the DM about the sorts of thematic conflicts that are ideal for this character:

Justice...at what cost?
*Whose* justice
Justice vs. vengeance
Is Justice really blind? Do intent & circumstance matter?

And so on. Actually, in this hypothetical 5e Planescape we're talking about, I think these sorts of conflicts should be spelled out for the DM as a sort of brainstorm/checklist for adventures.

Sure. I think it's important that ANY PS character is challenged in areas of thought those characters hold dear, faction or otherwise. Factions are just the easy way to grab onto what the setting already has going on (which is part of why I'd assume that all characters belong to a faction).

I like the idea of a more structured DM-side advice, linked to factions. I also imagine a loose tier-based guide:

Apprentice Tier: "State Your Belief", adventures that let the characters define what they believe.
Heroic Tier: "Defend Your Belief," adventures that allow the characters to protect their belief from those that would tear it down.
Paragon Tier: "Question Your Belief," adventures that show the difficulties that arise out of the extreme success of that belief, to discover its limits.
Epic Tier: "Realize Your Belief," adventure that allow your belief to define the planes in some lasting fashion.

 

[Quickleaf]

There was an intent to follow up on Faction War and eventually bring the Factions fully back. There was at one point a 'City of Doors' box set on TSR's release schedule, but ultimately material that was produced for that was folded into the city details section of 'Faction War'.

It would be great to mine the heads of those who might have written that had TSR/WotC continued down that road, just to see where they might have gone.

I don't know who that would be (Monte? Ray?), but I too would be curious.

I knew about the 'City of Doors' being folded in Faction War, and those old notes included in the dmg2 writeup for Sigil (thanks to Michele Carter's blog), but I didn't know about Faction War as part of an intended series.

Was it Monte who said this? Anyone have an interview/blog link or reference?

I like the idea of a more structured DM-side advice, linked to factions. I also imagine a loose tier-based guide:

Apprentice Tier: "State Your Belief", adventures that let the characters define what they believe.
Heroic Tier: "Defend Your Belief," adventures that allow the characters to protect their belief from those that would tear it down.
Paragon Tier: "Question Your Belief," adventures that show the difficulties that arise out of the extreme success of that belief, to discover its limits.
Epic Tier: "Realize Your Belief," adventure that allow your belief to define the planes in some lasting fashion.

That's a great outline! Of course, it's nothing rigid, but a very good guideline for how the meat of adventures for Planewalkers at those tiers work best.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Wow! I would love to see a link to where Monte said that!

He mentions it here:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8374

Faction War was never meant to be the end of PS. There was supposed to be a follow-up adventure/sourcebook that rebuilt things. But the line was cancelled before it could come out. A real shame.

I'm pretty sure he's said more elsewhere, but I can't find it (I can't find a way to access Piratecat's 2004 interview with him on here ENworld which promises "the truth about Faction War", among other things!).

Pretty sure that Monte being Monte, his planned rebuild was not going to be similar to the three-letter-acronym-y and generally mealy and wimpy-seeming version that appeared in 4E. His creations tend to have a bit more grandeur (the strange faux-medieval boringness of a lot of Numenera's core areas is a strange exception - esp. as the edges are far more grand!).

And, from a personal opinion standpoint, I agree with you that Faction War was not a good qdventure nor do I use it (or it's fallout) when I run PS games. I guess I'm thinking of published product, whether WotC or license, in the PS setting....how do they treat Faction War (and the DMG2 Sigil writeup)? Pretend it never happened?

I think that's the sensible option. I don't believe anyone is very attached to either Faction War or DMG2's Sigil (if so they're very quiet about it!).

 

[I'm A Banana]

SO! I'm watching the 5e adventure session and seeing Greg toss out Inspiration points for characters who play to their flaws. And I think this could have some interesting applications.

Inspiration gives you Advantage when you spend it. But what if your basic faction/belief abilites were powered by Inspiration?

That is, if you're a member of Harmonium, you can spend Inspiration to cast Charm Person. If you're a member of the Fated, perhaps you spend it to gain temporary proficiency in something you aren't proficient in. Or whatever other things might be "equal to, but more flavorful and interesting than just Advantage."

This could play into the idea of your belief having drawbacks as well quite nicely. So, your Harmonium member gets inspiration when they persaude someone to work with the group, your Fated mmeber gets inspiration when she tries to do something without help, etc....when your belief causes you some hardship, but you stick to it, you get Inspiration, and you can spend it in this special way. And, at the same time, if you don't have any hardship, you don't get any Inspiration, and your belief isn't quite as supernaturally useful to you. So an Athar member who never confronts a cleric and lives a comfortable life in isolation doesn't get the powerful belief-fueled abilities that the Athar can get. But one that's adventurous and working to advance her philosophy will get all sorts of harships, all sorts of Inspiration, and so will be a living demonstration of the power of belief, tested and strong.

It might get a bit saucy in figuring out what's "equal to Advantage," and I don't know that this will work for some of the higher-ranked belief powers, but I'm kind of fond of it for a start.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] I think it would work great for the basic non-static faction abilities. Actually I had something similar in my 4e conversion of Planewalker Handbook's belief points, even ways PCs could actually tip the balance of planar sites close to sliding to another plane!

A lot of the more potent stuff required your level to be between 3 and 7 in Factol's Manifesto, and I'd be tempted to turn those into feats. For example, take the Doomguard...

Background Trait - Always Armed
In addition to having proficiency with all military blades, you may spend 1 Inspiration point to draw upon the powers of entropy and manifest a weapon or implement from thin air.

Feat - Entropic Champion
Prerequisite: member of the Doomguard
You studied with a Doomlord at one of the Four Doomguard Citadels bordering the Negative Energy Plane where, as part of a secret rite, you forged a doomblade from a portion of your own flesh stripped away. Entropy was pleased with your sacrifice, your eyes growing dark and smoky having witnessed the end of all things, reborn as an elite operative against the forces of creation and stasis.

• While wielding your doomblade treat it as a +1 magic weapon. Alternately, if you imbued an existing magic weapon as your doomblade increase its plus by 1.
• Gain the ability to Sift thru crumbles destroyed material and get a sense of what caused the devastation. By spending 1 Inspiration point you can relive up to five minutes of whatever caused the disaster.
• Gain the ability to deliver an Entropic Blow against a creature of opposing alignment by spending 1 Inspiration point. If your attack hits, roll an extra damage die and the target is weakened fora round.