OSR Must OSR = Deadly?

[Michael Linke]

The 100 archers, A, are all in range of the dragon, D. The circle the represents a 630' radius around the dragon's center. The backward facing D at the top could represent the dragon's starting position before making his move. The D is roughly to scale, though the A are much larger than scale. The archers are dispersed 60ft apart! Really seems silly to me that more than maybe the dozen or so archers right in front of the oncoming dragon would be subject to this fear aura, or feel in any way that the dragon is about to "fly overhead".

Charging, on the other hand, is actually a game mechanic, with rules given on page 66 of the DMG. It doesn't at all resemble "flying aggressively toward people". Further, page 53 indicates the adult blue dragon will be forced to land and fight on the ground, where he has only a 9" move. once he sustains 26 hp of damage, and will fall to the ground, uncontrolled, if he manages to sustain 38 hp of damage.

Once on the ground, the dragon COULD charge, if he could manage to put more than 1" (10 yards) of distance between him and any enemies, but the archers would get a +1 bonus to their attack rolls against him when he did so.

To recap (also for Lanefan below)
1. The dragon can not charge while flying
2. The dragon can't "fly overhead" all of the archers unless he was in range of their bows to begin with (edited because original text was wrong)
3. Even if the archers underperform their average damage, the dragon will sustain enough damage to be grounded, before even being affected by the dragon's fear aura.
4. Given the formation pictured, the blue dragon's breath weapon would only kill 5 or 6 archers at a time, and he can only use it 3 times a day.

 

[Lanefan]

The 100 archers aren't really cannon fodder. They pretty handily kill the dragon, and the vast majority of them survive to get payed for the job.

Given as a 0th or even 1st-level archer needs a mighty high roll - probably a 20 - to damage any halfway-worthy dragon, that means those 100 archers are on average going to hit the dragon with 5 shots per mass volley at d6 per hit, which will average 18-ish points total for the volley. If they're using crossbows, that's one volley per round; if long- or shortbows they'll get two volleys per round (though one of those will likely be at long range as it flies away for another pass). Most worthwhile dragons can take that kind of damage at least twice before having to worry about becoming unable to fly.

This is very generously assuming the archers aren't fleeing in terror or cowering in fear.

Further, each time the dragon breathes there's going to be a whole lot fewer archers - and probably another morale check to go with it for those remaining.

What it boils down to is that to have half a chance of bringing the dragon down those archers need to get collectively lucky on their first round of shots. If they do, maybe they shoot it down (it can't stay aloft after sustaining a certain amount of damage) and then can kill it because it can't move nearly as fast on the ground to get to them.

Otherwise, those archers are hooped.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Really seems silly to me that more than maybe the dozen or so archers right in front of the oncoming dragon would be subject to this fear aura, or feel in any way that the dragon has charged at them.

Might seem "silly" to you, but as long as the dragon flies overhead (no limit in range, so again out of range of the bow), the archers will flee, be paralyzed, etc. as I said before.

Also, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that the archers were not 0-level as far as the terms of the dragon fear are concerned. If they are 0-level, they automatically panic and flee.

There is a reason why heroes are sent to deal with dragons, and not small armies of archers...

 

[Lanefan]

The 100 archers, A, are all in range of the dragon, D. The circle the represents a 630' radius around the dragon's center. The backward facing D at the top could represent the dragon's starting position before making his move. The D is roughly to scale, though the A are much larger than scale. The archers are dispersed 60ft apart! Really seems silly to me that more than maybe the dozen or so archers right in front of the oncoming dragon would be subject to this fear aura, or feel in any way that the dragon has charged at them.View attachment 131122

Charging is actually a game mechanic, with rules given on page 66 of the DMG. It doesn't at all resemble "flying aggressively toward people". Further, page 53 indicates the adult blue dragon will be forced to land and fight on the ground, where he has only a 9" move. once he sustains 26 hp of damage, and will fall to the ground, uncontrolled, if he manages to sustain 38 hp of damage.

Once on the ground, the dragon COULD charge, if he could manage to put more than 1" (10 yards) of distance between him and any enemies, but the archers would get a +1 bonus to their attack rolls against him when he did so.

What this doesn't take into account is the dragon's elevation, which affects the archers' effective range. At a guess I'd say at least 1/3, maybe 1/2 of the archers will be taking a to-hit penalty the whole time due to range, with the rest (about six or seven across, down the center) taking a penalty except when the dragon gets close to them as it flies by.

This also assumes the dragon is dumb enough to go straight for the center, rather than at one edge thus putting the far-side archers even further into range penalties.

 

[Campbell]

What I find silly is trying to extrapolate a combat system built for small skirmishes between groups that are not even large enough to form a full squad into groups as large as a force of 100 men. The abstractions just would not hold.

 

[Michael Linke]

Might seem "silly" to you, but as long as the dragon flies overhead (no limit in range, so again out of range of the bow), the archers will flee, be paralyzed, etc. as I said before.

Also, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that the archers were not 0-level as far as the terms of the dragon fear are concerned. If they are 0-level, they automatically panic and flee.

There is a reason why heroes are sent to deal with dragons, and not small armies of archers...

There's no way the dragon can "fly overhead" unless he first finishes a turn within range of the archers (the long bow's range is greater than the dragon's flying speed). Either the dragon is going first, and he gets shot after his first move, or the dragon lost initiative and gets shot before his second move.

What this doesn't take into account is the dragon's elevation, which affects the archers' effective range. At a guess I'd say at least 1/3, maybe 1/2 of the archers will be taking a to-hit penalty the whole time due to range, with the rest (about six or seven across, down the center) taking a penalty except when the dragon gets close to them as it flies by.

This also assumes the dragon is dumb enough to go straight for the center, rather than at one edge thus putting the far-side archers even further into range penalties.

"Dragons' egoistic nature makes them subject to flattery, and it also makes the more stupid of them prone to attack other powerful creatures whom they view as disputing their dominating position." Blue and Green dragons are the "stupidest" dragons in the MM, so it looks like you'd just have to convince him your army was a threat to his way of life to goad him into a fight.

 

[Lanefan]

What I find silly is trying to extrapolate a combat system built for small skirmishes between groups that are not even large enough to form a full squad into groups as large as a force of 100 men. The abstractions just would not hold.

When it's 100 vs 1, such as in the example, the abstraction still holds up reasonably well.

When it's 100 vs 100, it falls apart unless one wants to do a crazy amount of dice-rolling.

 

[DND_Reborn]

There's no way the dragon can "fly overhead" unless he firsts finishes a turn within range of the archers (the long bow's range is greater than the dragon's flying speed). Either the dragon is going first, and he gets shot after his first move, or the dragon lost initiative and gets shot before he moves.

Seriously?

The dragon approaches the field of combat, flying 650 feet above the ground, and flies overhead of the field of battle. The archers, seeing a dragon which spells instant death considering their 4 hp or so, flee in utter panic and our routed. Even if you allow them to not be 0-level men-at-arms, etc. the majority of them will still run or be frozen in panic.

You seem to think the dragon just poof appears on the field of battle at ground level or something...

 

[DND_Reborn]

Oh, and this is also wrong:

(the long bow's range is greater than the dragon's flying speed

maximum range on a longbow is 21". blue dragons fly at 24".

 

[Michael Linke]

Oh, and this is also wrong:

maximum range on a longbow is 21". blue dragons fly at 24".

View attachment 131123

View attachment 131124

You're right, i reversed it, though the picture has the accurate distances.