D&D (2024) Longsword finesse when used 2H

[Yaarel]

Interesting. I’d probably generify katana into something like “war knife”, and throw in a 1d6 slash finesse, light “long knife” to represent various single-edged cutting swords, but this feels like a good selection of sword types. Why, why does the longsword just slash instead of slash/pierce?

I cant think of an other term for "katana" ... that means katana. Quicksword? Sprysword?

In an earlier edition, I might have said "elfsword", but I doubt that would work now when 2024 decouples abilities from species, and my understanding of "elf" never connoted Dexterity anyway.

The katana is a proper sword, where the definition of a "sword" is a blade length between 2 and 3 feet. Since the katana is a sword, I would avoid the term "knife". It is mainly its construction and hilt that allow its finesse property.

A "knife", including a dagger, has a bladelength less than 1 foot. Thus the longknife that is over 1 foot, counts as a shortsword whose bladelength is between 1 and 2 feet.


For polearm, it depends on the type of polearm.

A Spear should probably count as a "polearm". It is the original polearm. Any spear or longer (longspear, lance, pike), is used to keep a target away. Probably, the weapon itself should grant an Opportunity Attack at any target that tries to move past the spearhead.

Some polearms are designed to pierce armor.

When I was thinking about guns in D&D, the bullet pierces the metal armor. To represent how a gun ignores armor, the best mechanic is probably a Dexterity saving throw versus 1d8 Pierce. Thus heavy armor and low Dexterity is less helpful against a gun. For a single bullet, the saving throw is all or nothing. Maybe for a shotgun spray, there might be half damage. Perhaps specially reinforced "proofed" armors grant an advantage to the saving throw.

Maybe the armor-bypassing polearms can have a similar mechanic. If thrusting the part of the polearm that is a spear (or similar spike or sword blade at the end of the pole), then it does normal spear damage, 1d8 Pierce. But if swinging the part of the polearm that obviates armor, it does DC 10 Dexterity save, versus 1d8 Pierce or versus 1d8 Bludgeon, depending on the type of polearm. The polearm wielder chooses which part of the polearm to use for each attack.


I havent thought much about the axe. Notably, many axes are normal axes, the kind that chop wood. So, at least they are a handy tool, such as to chop thru a door.

I don't know why katanas would be the longsword to get finesse. Katanas, among longswords, are relatively slash-focused and their center of balance is relatively towards the blade. If all longswords are finesse weapons, then by all means katanas should be right there with them, but singling out katanas as the finessable ones I don't see the reason.

If you are familiar with a "claymore", that is what a reallife "longsword" looks like. A longsword is "long", with a blade length between 3 and 4 feet. One can wield a claymore one-handed, but it would never count as a "finesse" sword.

(Earlier editions employed the term "long sword" improperly. What these called a "bastard sword" is actually what a longsword is. 5e corrected the error, emphasizing that a longsword is long and can be wielded with either one or two hands.)

The "sword" is the "normal sword", also known as a knightly arming sword, viking sword, spatha, and other names. It is a one-handed weapon, can "cut and thrust" (Slash/Pierce), and is, in fact, an agile weapon that counts as a 5e Finesse property.

The katana is comparable to the Western "sword" but has a long hilt that is typically wielded with both hands. One can wield a katana with one hand.

One can use katanas and knightly swords in two-weapon fighting. But those who can do it well are rare. These blades arent "Light". The way 5e requires a feat works great.

 

[Charlaquin]

I cant think of an other term for "katana" ... that means katana. Quicksword? Sprysword?
In an earlier edition, I might have said "elfsword", but I doubt that would work now when 2024 decouples abilities from species, and my understanding of "elf" never connoted Dexterity anyway.

The katana is a proper sword, where the definition of a "sword" is a blade length between 2 and 3 feet. The katana leans toward 2 and the knightly sword leans toward 3, but they overlap. Since the katana is a sword, I would avoid the term "knife". It is mainly its construction and hilt that allow its finesse property.

A "knife", including a dagger, has a bladelength less than 1 foot. Thus the longknife that is over 1 foot, counts as a shortsword whose bladelength is between 1 and 2 feet.

Backsword is the general term for a single-edged cutting sword, which would include katanas, sabres, falschons, messers, hangers, cutlasses, shamshir, etc. But I wanted to further differentiate between one-handed and two-handed or “hand and a half” varieties, and “backsword” and “great backsword” didn’t sound right to me. Instead, I reached for “long knife” from the German Langmesser, literally meaning long knife, and “war knife” from the German Kriegsmesser (meaning war knife), which were a two-handed variety of messer.

Why these medieval German backswords were called knives comes down not to blade length - in fact, their blade typologies were identical to those of the contemporary falschions - but rather their hilt construction, with the tang riveted between two unconnected wooden pieces, just like a knife. Probably they were made this way so craftsfolk in knifemaker’s guilds could legally get in on the sword market.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I cant think of an other term for "katana" ... that means katana. Quicksword? Sprysword?

In an earlier edition, I might have said "elfsword", but I doubt that would work now when 2024 decouples abilities from species, and my understanding of "elf" never connoted Dexterity anyway.

The katana is a proper sword, where the definition of a "sword" is a blade length between 2 and 3 feet. Since the katana is a sword, I would avoid the term "knife". It is mainly its construction and hilt that allow its finesse property.

There is nothing special about the construction of the katana that grants it Finesse. Even compared to the german messers (knives) with whom they share similarities in design and usage, they are fairly short and blade-heavy.
If you want your character who can't jump over their lunch box and has the muscle tone of overcooked spaghetti to wield a katana effectively, there are a number of better options. Using scimitar stats, or the ever-reliable Hexblade would be two.
There might be an argument for the historical Longsword, the point of which was used a lot, as being Finesse although I personally would say no to that. The katana however is one of the least-Finessable (in the D&D sense, not common English sense) weapons that would fall into the Longsword category of 5e.
Even much anime media, which depicts a lot of katana-wielding heroes, seems to depict them as being of exceedingly high strength.

[QUOTE
Some polearms are designed to pierce armor.

When I was thinking about guns in D&D, the bullet pierces the metal armor. To represent how a gun ignores armor, the best mechanic is probably a Dexterity saving throw versus 1d8 Pierce. Thus heavy armor and low Dexterity is less helpful against a gun. For a single bullet, the saving throw is all or nothing. Maybe for a shotgun spray, there might be half damage. Perhaps specially reinforced "proofed" armors grant an advantage to the saving throw.

Maybe the armor-bypassing polearms can have a similar mechanic. If thrusting the part of the polearm that is a spear (or similar spike or sword blade at the end of the pole), then it does normal spear damage, 1d8 Pierce. But if swinging the part of the polearm that obviates armor, it does DC 10 Dexterity save, versus 1d8 Pierce or versus 1d8 Bludgeon, depending on the type of polearm. The polearm wielder chooses which part of the polearm to use for each attack.


I havent thought much about the axe. Notably, many axes are normal axes, the kind that chop wood. So, at least they are a handy tool, such as to chop thru a door.[/QUOTE] Some polearms and other weapons were designed to pierce armour, but that doesn't mean that they can ignore a breastplate any more than musket balls can. They were better at getting through armour than swords were, for example, but "better" doesn't mean "automatic success". 5e's combat is not granular enough to take into account those respective advantages, but the new Graze weapon mastery property might be the best way to represent that. Or just giving a bonus to hit or damage against a high-AC target.
I could definitely see an experienced warrior making an attack where their opponent had to make a save or take damage, but I think that that would be an ability of the warrior, not the weapon.

If you are familiar with a "claymore", that is what a reallife "longsword" looks like. A longsword is "long", with a blade length between 3 and 4 feet. One can wield a claymore one-handed, but it would never count as a "finesse" sword.

A "Claymore" is literally a "greatsword". Its a two-handed sword. Not even like the historical longsword, which was only almost exclusively two-handed. Unless you're talking about the basket-hilted claymores from later on, but they are are almost exclusively one-handed.

(Earlier editions employed the term "long sword" improperly. What these called a "bastard sword" is actually what a longsword is. 5e corrected the error, emphasizing that a longsword is long and can be wielded with either one or two hands.)

The "sword" is the "normal sword", also known as a knightly arming sword, viking sword, spatha, and other names. It is a one-handed weapon, can "cut and thrust" (Slash/Pierce), and is, in fact, an agile weapon that counts as a 5e Finesse property.

The katana is comparable to the Western "sword" but has a long hilt that is typically wielded with both hands. One can wield a katana with one hand.

All of those swords still fall into 5e's "longsword " category and they do not, in fact, have the Finesse property.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

okay, so the staff should be finesse too right? and unarmed strikes too right?

 

[Willie the Duck]

If you are familiar with a "claymore", that is what a reallife "longsword" looks like. A longsword is "long", with a blade length between 3 and 4 feet. One can wield a claymore one-handed, but it would never count as a "finesse" sword.

(Earlier editions employed the term "long sword" improperly. What these called a "bastard sword" is actually what a longsword is. 5e corrected the error, emphasizing that a longsword is long and can be wielded with either one or two hands.)

The "sword" is the "normal sword", also known as a knightly arming sword, viking sword, spatha, and other names. It is a one-handed weapon, can "cut and thrust" (Slash/Pierce), and is, in fact, an agile weapon that counts as a 5e Finesse property.

The katana is comparable to the Western "sword" but has a long hilt that is typically wielded with both hands. One can wield a katana with one hand.

One can use katanas and knightly swords in two-weapon fighting. But those who can do it well are rare. These blades arent "Light". The way 5e requires a feat works great.

Did you really just try to explain to me what a longsword is? Would you also like to explain to me that studded leather is ahistoric and that plate 'mail' is a misnomer?

Now, again -- amongst the many different types of swords which fall into the longsword category*, a katana does not seem like a solid candidate for the one and only which should gain the finesse quality. If all longswords were to get finesse (particularly if wielded in two hands, as has been suggested) I could understand the logic and accept the argument. However, there is nothing about the katana which should make it the finesse option out of all the longswords -- it's relatively short, thick-bladed, slash-centric, with a center of balance relatively towards the blade. It doesn't stand out as a nimble option or 'dexterous-person's weapon' amongst them. At least unless there's some other argument about when finesse ought be applied. In which case I would love to hear that argument, which is that for which I was asking.
*which is not a clear categorization, but generally a sword which --unlike a greatsword/bidenhander/spadone/montana-- can realistically be wielded in one hand (at least from horseback); and also one which -- unlike a shortsword/hanger/fascine knife/gladius/etc.-- would gain some practical benefit from a second hand.

okay, so the staff should be finesse too right? and unarmed strikes too right?

Personally, I might argue for something like GURPS does where all weapons use Dex to to-hit and Str for damage (and maybe minimum strength to effectively use). Even relatively brute force weapons like maces or mauls (or big-ol' ogre greatclubs) use strength mostly in being able to control the weapon, but then skill and basic coordination to make them land. (Also something of a staple of fiction for the giant or ogre swinging that terrible club around and man do you not want to be hit by it, but the nimble protagonist survives because them actually landing a hit with the thing against a moving target is a rare event).

 

[tetrasodium]

I for one am glad to not have the mall ninja weapon debates about graceful curves for slashing and the merits of folding steel at the table that used to come with katana being in the weapons tables

If katana made a return those debates are precisely why it should not be dex or top shelf damage dice

 

[Yaarel]

Did you really just try to explain to me what a longsword is? Would you also like to explain to me that studded leather is ahistoric and that plate 'mail' is a misnomer?

Heh, I am sure you meant this, but "plate mail" is ok. "Chain mail" is the improper term.

Now, again -- amongst the many different types of swords which fall into the longsword category*, a katana does not seem like a solid candidate for the one and only which should gain the finesse quality.

To be clear, there are three kinds of "swords" here:

Shortsword (bladelength 1−2 feet)
Sword (bladelength 2−3 feet) - such as the knightly arming sword
Longsword (bladelength 3−4 feet) - such as the claymore

Both the knightly arming sword and the katana are agile, and exhibit the Finesse property.

The katana is distinct from the knightly arming sword because the katana is constructed for two-handed use, and exhibits the Versatile property.

 

[Yaarel]

okay, so the staff should be finesse too right? and unarmed strikes too right?

I am open to the idea that a Staff in both hands is Finesse, and each end can be used as part of a "two weapon attack" sotospeak.

I feel some weapons are important for flavor, and it is ok to ensure they are mechanically useful.

I view the flavorful weapons to be (depending on the setting):

• Sword (knight, viking, etcetera)
• Spear
• Axe
• Longbow

And I would add the "Knife" and Staff too.

Polearms arent especially a thing for me, but they might easily be for other players who have different impressions of the Medieval Period.

 

[Yaarel]

Some polearms and other weapons were designed to pierce armour, but that doesn't mean that they can ignore a breastplate any more than musket balls can. They were better at getting through armour than swords were, for example, but "better" doesn't mean "automatic success".

A Dexterity Saving Throw is not an "automatic success". However it is a mechanic whose success ignores the presence or absence of armor.

5e's combat is not granular enough to take into account those respective advantages, but the new Graze weapon mastery property might be the best way to represent that. Or just giving a bonus to hit or damage against a high-AC target. I could definitely see an experienced warrior making an attack where their opponent had to make a save or take damage, but I think that that would be an ability of the warrior, not the weapon.

Utilizing the Dexterity Saving Throw DC instead of an Attack Roll AC is granular enough to represent how the damage relates to armor.

A "Claymore" is literally a "greatsword". Its a two-handed sword. Not even like the historical longsword, which was only almost exclusively two-handed. Unless you're talking about the basket-hilted claymores from later on, but they are are almost exclusively one-handed.

All of those swords still fall into 5e's "longsword " category and they do not, in fact, have the Finesse property.

One can and historically did wield the claymore one-handed, as well as two-handed. It is a versatile weapon.

However, this sword type is constructed with a "two-handed" grip, as opposed to a "hand-and-half" grip. These technical terms refer to the hilt of the sword, not the bladelength of the sword, nor the fighting styles that utilize the sword.

 

[Bill Zebub]

@Bill Zebub I get what you want. I do not think it will break the game by any means. But I also get that players that have a character concept never ever want to have a give and take. Just like your ranger example:

You already can be good at both. But you want to be good at both without taking away from your constitution. As a player, it seems you only want something without sacrificing something else, which is the entire point of making decisions when creating a character.

In general I get what you're saying, and agree that too many players seem to want more and more and more without giving up anything.

Except that in this case what I want my character to "get" is almost purely cosmetic. He can already be good at both melee and ranged, by dual-wielding short swords. This wouldn't make him any more effective mechanically. It's expanding the range of ways one can imagine their character, without power creep.

If I were arguing for 2H swords to be finesse, then sure. But that's not what I'm suggesting.