D&D (2024) Longsword finesse when used 2H

[Charlaquin]

It's called leverage, rapiers actually require strength because they don't take advantage of a second hand, and yes while rapiers have a center closer to the guard they weigh only a little less then a longsword which is meant to be wielded in two hands.

Yes, and if D&D was meant to be a realistic weapon physics simulation, it would make more sense for longswords to have finesse and rapiers to require strength. But if D&D simulates anything it’s the tropes and conventions of the fantasy genre, wherein rapiers are used by nimble swashbucklers and longswords are used by strong knights.

 

[Charlaquin]

TBH I think all weapons should be finesse. It makes sense to me that you need both str and dex and wis (as used in D&D) for all weapon attacks.

I had a DM that played with the idea that you had to use the lowest of those 3 stats as an attack stat and that sucked.

I’ve long thought it would be cool if all weapons used Dex for to-hit bonus and Strength for damage bonus. But you’d need to do something similar with spells; maybe Int for spell save DC and Cha for spell attack bonus, leaving Wis as the primary save type against mind-affecting magic?

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Is the idea crazy?

Implications:

• A rogue could sneak attack with a d10 weapon, but would sacrifice two attacks with d6 weapons, which means only one chance at sneak attack
• In general elven proficiency would no longer be totally worthless
• Archers (fighters and rangers) would have a cool alternative to dual wielding
• The “unarmored swordsman” archetype would have viable builds other than Kensei

For rule symmetry it would probably make sense to just say that all Versatile weapons are finesse when used with two hands. I can’t quite picture it with axes and hammers, with their balance points at the other end, but it would open up more options and not actually break anything.

Thoughts? Am I overlooking an exploit/loophole?

To be honest, when ever I have seen HEMA people sparring with longsword 2 handed, my thoughts are that it is a finesse based technique.
I actually like it.
Maybe finesse should be a fighting style?

 

[tetrasodium]

mighty? assuming you mean STR requirement then yes i don't see why they shouldn't be.

personally i would just retool the Heavy property to affect everyone equally(not just small sized species) without a having the corresponding STR value to weild it.

I forget what mighty bows were specifically but think they required a given strength score or used strength instead of dex. Composite bows were similar in that they allowed adding some of the user's strength mod to damage.

Spoiler: composite bows

Description​

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost.

For purposes of weapon proficiency and, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.

 

[HammerMan]

mighty? assuming you mean STR requirement then yes i don't see why they shouldn't be.

personally i would just retool the Heavy property to affect everyone equally(not just small sized species) without a having the corresponding STR value to weild it.

Back in 2e there were bows (I don’t remember if it was core or splat add on) that gave a bonus to damage based on your Str but you couldn’t fire it with out that Str.

 

[Willie the Duck]

TBH I think all weapons should be finesse. It makes sense to me that you need both str and dex and wis (as used in D&D) for all weapon attacks.
I had a DM that played with the idea that you had to use the lowest of those 3 stats as an attack stat and that sucked.

Yeah, at that point you almost have to start questioning if the very concept of character attributes is serving the right purpose there. I mean, if all fighter-y types are just using the lowest of three stats, the stats are going to do precious little to distinguish between them*.
*Which harkens to my ongoing diatribe about attribute numbers being the least interesting way to distinguish between characters.

mighty? assuming you mean STR requirement then yes i don't see why they shouldn't be.

Back in 2e there were bows (I don’t remember if it was core or splat add on) that gave a bonus to damage based on your Str but you couldn’t fire it with out that Str.

In 2e (and 3e) you didn't add your Dex bonus to bows, but instead could add your Str bonus if and only if you bought 'mighty' longbows* with the same plus as your str bonus. The total gp expenditure was relatively small -- like 100 gp per plus. What it meant, however, is that you never found a fancy bow in the loot (magical or otherwise) that exactly met your needs.
*I think they had to be composite in both editions
**at least once you consider the price of composite longbows in general

Overall, I'm not against finesse-longswords in particular. I am leery of selective application or realism* as justification for a change. I want to know what that does to the game structure, how hard it is to field a martial character and what kind of balance is there between types (dex-based, str-based, or splitting the middle)?
*in a game which already has pikes being used out of formation and whips going up against plate armor, and so on

I'd also be amenable to them biting the bullet and calling the attributes tropes codifiers and rename them something like Brawn, Finesse, Ruggedness, Learned, Cunning, and Presence or the like.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Yeah, at that point you almost have to start questioning if the very concept of character attributes is serving the right purpose there.

yup... I ask that all the time

 

[Yaarel]

Is the idea crazy?

Implications:

• A rogue could sneak attack with a d10 weapon, but would sacrifice two attacks with d6 weapons, which means only one chance at sneak attack
• In general elven proficiency would no longer be totally worthless
• Archers (fighters and rangers) would have a cool alternative to dual wielding
• The “unarmored swordsman” archetype would have viable builds other than Kensei

For rule symmetry it would probably make sense to just say that all Versatile weapons are finesse when used with two hands. I can’t quite picture it with axes and hammers, with their balance points at the other end, but it would open up more options and not actually break anything.

Thoughts? Am I overlooking an exploit/loophole?

finesse, versatile, longsword ≈ katana

I prefer the following stats:

Shortsword 1d6 Pierce (Finesse, Light)
Katana 1d6 Slash/Pierce (Finesse, Versatile 1d10)
Sword 1d8 Slash/Pierce (Finesse)
Longsword 1d8 Slash (Versatile 1d12)
Greatsword 1d12 Slash (Two-Hand, Reach)

 

[Charlaquin]

finesse, versatile, longsword ≈ katana

I prefer the following stats:

Shortsword 1d6 Pierce (Finesse, Light)
Katana 1d6 Slash/Pierce (Finesse, Versatile 1d10)
Sword 1d8 Slash/Pierce (Finesse)
Longsword 1d8 Slash (Versatile 1d12)
Greatsword 1d12 Slash (Two-Hand, Reach)

Interesting. I’d probably generify katana into something like “war knife”, and throw in a 1d6 slash finesse, light “long knife” to represent various single-edged cutting swords, but this feels like a good selection of sword types. Why, why does the longsword just slash instead of slash/pierce?

 

[Willie the Duck]

finesse, versatile, longsword ≈ katana

I don't know why katanas would be the longsword to get finesse. Katanas, among longswords, are relatively slash-focused and their center of balance is relatively towards the blade. If all longswords are finesse weapons, then by all means katanas should be right there with them, but singling out katanas as the finessable ones I don't see the reason.