D&D 4E Kara-Tur Supplement for 4e - Ideas?

[AbdulAlhazred]

I've read the whole thread. No one asserted these things that I have quoted.

I don't think the issue of suicide (ritual or otherwise) has even been mentioned except by you. And I think you are the only poster to mention Rokugan - the thread itself being about Kara-Tur, and having evolved into a general discussion of how the AD&D Oriental Adventures classes might be realised in 4e.

If one wishes to build a samurai as a STR/DEX fighter, who is nimble, quick, and somewhat capable with a bow - not an absurd model of a samurai, it seems to me - then [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s suggestion of a "tempest" fighter seems reasonable. Upthread I suggested an archer warlord as another way of going. Like the tempest option, this is also going to push the character towards lighter armours. But because the character is therefore likely to be built as STR/INT - in order to have a reasonable AC - the archer warlord samurai will be reasonably capable in History and Religion, which would suit those who want to play a scholarly sort of samurai. This is an aspect of the samurai archetype that the original OA tended to emphasise (via its proficiency rules).

Yeah, there are a LOT of ways to skin that cat. You could refluff a barbarian to make a pretty good Samurai as well, using the more leaderish barbarian build and just fluff his rages as 'kiai'. You could always grab Improved Initiative, and emphasize WIS based skills. It would be a less urban sort of character, but it would work well as the kind of hick from the sticks come to court or something.

 

[Manbearcat]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s suggestion of a "tempest" fighter seems reasonable.

Just a total (rather interesting because of the dynamics surrounding the situations...at least I think so) aside.

So far on these boards I've been not so subtly called a bigot against Mormonism (effectively) because of my appreciation for Dogs in the Vineyard and the thematic content that spins out of play. Now I've been called a racist for the suggestion that 4e's PC build mechanics can support a reasonable facsimile of the pulp/genre and thematic aspects of a Samurai via a tempest build fighter + Samurai theme.

I believe you were involved in both of those conversations so you likely witnessed the exchanges. Those would seem to be pretty serious offenses with respect to board policy (especially when the charges are so ridiculously vacuous and unsupportable). Conversely, advising someone they are projecting because they are exhibiting the exact behavior they are currently (wrongly) charging their adversary with would seem to be a rather petty offense by comparison (especially when it is blatantly obvious).

Anyway, on to something even more interesting. The Kensai (without Swordmage multi-class for sword prof!):

This guy looks the part of the mystical "sword saint", an unarmored master of weapon that calls upon martial and mystical power to answer all who might challenge him to a duel with the promise of a swift death at the business end of his weapon.

1) Dex and Wisdom primary.

2) Martial and Psionic Power Source (for ki). The Elemental Initiate Theme actually works great for a Kensai. Ascetic, humble life. Withdraws from the world to study to be free of distraction, devoting hours to study, meditation, and martial practice. Its powers are Psionic keyword. The level 1 encounter power is a Weapon/Psionic counterattack when you're missed in melee. Very fitting, especially for duels. Further, you gain training in a "peaceful" skill later and a bonus to Will. Finally, the Utilities of Balancing Step, Restoring Touch, and Flowing Defense all support the amazingly mobile, graceful warrior who is at peace when he is not at war.

3) While he has a secondary proficiency in the bow (which is allowed in the 1e iteration), his primary training is focused on his chosen weapon...the khopesh. This weapon strikes me as thematically appropriate, works well with a Dex melee ranger build, carries Brutal 1 property and comes with both Axe and Heavy Blade feat support.

4) Defender AC and very good NADs at 1st level.

5) Whirlwind (Five Storms) is a staple of Kensai. Hunter's Quarry easily serves as the "duel specialist" mechanical augmentation. Flurry of Blows does the same for the Monk side.

6) Tons of mobility and the ability to augment that mobility and defense with Skirmishing Stance.

7) Master of Martial Skills (Acro, Ath, End). Insight is a must-have skill for a duelist. Heal is the "peaceful" skill.

Down the line you can take Cunning Stalker (CA when its just you and your enemy), Defensive Advantage (+2 AC vs targets you have CA against), Khopesh support (focus, exp, and HB/Axe feats) and multi-class Assassin or Rogue for single target damage spike.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Human, Monk/Ranger
Monastic Tradition (Hybrid) Option: Centered Breath (Hybrid)
Hybrid Monk Option: Hybrid Monk Fortitude
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Hybrid Talent Option: Unarmored Defense
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Blademaster (+2 to Insight)
Theme: Elemental Initiate

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 12, DEX 18, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 10


AC: 18 Fort: 15 Ref: 16 Will: 14
HP: 24 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Athletics +6, Endurance +6, Heal +7, Insight +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +1, Bluff +0, Diplomacy +0, Dungeoneering +2, History +1, Intimidate +0, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +1, Stealth +4, Streetwise +0, Thievery +4

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Elemental Initiate Attack: Disciplined Counter
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Monk Feature: Centered Flurry of Blows
Hunter's Quarry Power: Hunter's Quarry
Monk Attack 1: Five Storms
Ranger Attack 1: Fading Strike
Monk Attack 1: Gentle Rainfall
Ranger Attack 1: Skirmishing Stance

FEATS
Level 1: Unarmored Agility
Level 1: Hybrid Talent

ITEMS
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) x1
Adventurer's Kit
Longbow
Khopesh x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
====== End ======

 

[MwaO]

You might want to check out the 4e Monk, Ranger, and hybrid handbooks in the optimization section.

All kinds of relatively strange choices going on here. A Centered Breath Monk passing up Drunken Monkey? A Ranger passing up Twin Strike?

 

[Manbearcat]

You might want to check out the 4e Monk, Ranger, and hybrid handbooks in the optimization section.

All kinds of relatively strange choices going on here. A Centered Breath Monk passing up Drunken Monkey? A Ranger passing up Twin Strike?

No I'm very much aware of the optimization strategies for both of these classes (pretty much all classes in 4e). I was just looking to best map the thematic and mechanical components of the 1e kensai to 4e PC build mechanics. I didn't choose Twin Strike because this character would get no use out of the melee component of it (while he would get a little bit of utility from Fading Strike on that end), and the use of the bow would be very secondary (but Deft Strike does have the skirmisher component for both melee and ranged so there is thematically coherent utility there).

I mainly wanted to get my points 1-7 above in. Ranger gives swords as implements and Hunter's Quarry adds a duelist bent to things (while hybrid Ranger detaches Nature from Trained Skills).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Heh, my answer for Kensei is Slayer! Simple, but very very direct. You can go with a DEX build if you want. For some reason today my browser won't let me type anywhere in the CB, so I can't actually do it up, sigh. I'm pretty sure it will work though, and look at the Haunted Blade theme, its fun!

 

[MwaO]

No I'm very much aware of the optimization strategies for both of these classes (pretty much all classes in 4e). I was just looking to best map the thematic and mechanical components of the 1e kensai to 4e PC build mechanics. I didn't choose Twin Strike because this character would get no use out of the melee component of it (while he would get a little bit of utility from Fading Strike on that end), and the use of the bow would be very secondary (but Deft Strike does have the skirmisher component for both melee and ranged so there is thematically coherent utility there).

You have Five Storms and therefore can shift as a minor action, even on rounds you don't use it as an attack power. If you need to do a melee at-will attack, Five Storms is basically Fading Strike for your build because of the need to spend a minor action to Quarry to get the damage equivalent. The only time it isn't is if you can't actually see your opponent, but there are so many times where Five Storms is going to be flat-out better for you - simply because you'll want to attack 2 opponents instead of only 1.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You have Five Storms and therefore can shift as a minor action, even on rounds you don't use it as an attack power. If you need to do a melee at-will attack, Five Storms is basically Fading Strike for your build because of the need to spend a minor action to Quarry to get the damage equivalent. The only time it isn't is if you can't actually see your opponent, but there are so many times where Five Storms is going to be flat-out better for you - simply because you'll want to attack 2 opponents instead of only 1.

Actually its a Move Action, its the Movement Technique of Five Storms, so not Minor. Not that it is a BAD option, and you can always do things like use that and then Charge and use an MBA or some other MBA substitute for your standard action, etc. Anyway, its potentially a good option, though it has competition from a few other Full Discipline at-wills.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Another Kensei option might actually be a Rapier build Rogue. I'm sure you could reflavor quite a few powers, and it would probably be a good complement to the monk wouldn't it, if you wanted to hybrid for ki?

 

[Manbearcat]

Real, real quick as I don't have a ton of time.

You have Five Storms and therefore can shift as a minor action, even on rounds you don't use it as an attack power. If you need to do a melee at-will attack, Five Storms is basically Fading Strike for your build because of the need to spend a minor action to Quarry to get the damage equivalent. The only time it isn't is if you can't actually see your opponent, but there are so many times where Five Storms is going to be flat-out better for you - simply because you'll want to attack 2 opponents instead of only 1.

1) I wanted to get a melee and ranged keyword weapon attack for Ranger with Dex as abmod. That way you can feat it up with heavy blade support (and possibly axe as it is khopesh...it would have been optimal to go light blade - rapier but I thought the khopesh would be fun and sensible for the genre components of a kensai - either that or scimitar). Further, without going with Fading Strike, you have no at-will weapon attack with Ranger where you can leverage Hunter's Quarry (and its superior single target damage scaling and feat support) for dueling.

2) Again, as a Kensai, this guy wouldn't be using a bow that much at all. I basically had to choose a second option to complement Five Storms and his general shtick (the dueling aspect + the mobility + Dex), and that seemed best.

Another Kensei option might actually be a Rapier build Rogue. I'm sure you could reflavor quite a few powers, and it would probably be a good complement to the monk wouldn't it, if you wanted to hybrid for ki?

That was another option I considered and it would work great. However, it wouldn't be RAW as you'd need to sub the swashbuckling/duelist CHA build (of which there is awesome support - the Rogue in my last 1-30 game was that build) for WIS. Also, you've got an issue with the unarmored component. You're gimping yourself pretty good without using leather armor (and/or using a feat tax for unarmored agility and still not getting monk unarmored AC). You could hybrid it (considered that), but you'd still need to change the CHA portion of the Rogue support to WIS.

After doing the above guy, I still think I like the pure Monk with SM multi-class (for swords as implement proficiency primarily but also getting a mystical armor bonus + Arcana) as the best way to go for a Kensai.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That was another option I considered and it would work great. However, it wouldn't be RAW as you'd need to sub the swashbuckling/duelist CHA build (of which there is awesome support - the Rogue in my last 1-30 game was that build) for WIS. Also, you've got an issue with the unarmored component. You're gimping yourself pretty good without using leather armor (and/or using a feat tax for unarmored agility and still not getting monk unarmored AC). You could hybrid it (considered that), but you'd still need to change the CHA portion of the Rogue support to WIS.

After doing the above guy, I still think I like the pure Monk with SM multi-class (for swords as implement proficiency primarily but also getting a mystical armor bonus + Arcana) as the best way to go for a Kensai.

I'm not sure what the CHA/WIS part is about, you could do a DEX/WIS build or DEX/INT build for specific skill support (and still do CHA tertiary to keep from losing out too much on some CHA riders). Frankly I'd just wear the leather armor, its not really out of character, though strictly speaking it diverges slightly from the OA class parameters its not like its wildly out of line (and 'kensei' really might as well be wearing some light armor, who cares?). You could fluff it as some heavy gloves and a face guard/light helmet if you want.

Its easy enough to get access to a heavier weapon too, you can take the feat that grants SA damage with heavy blades at level 1 (you're human, so you have 2 feats, take bastard sword proficiency for the 2nd one). Not particularly an optimum path, but its effectively a one feat cost vs rapier, and you do get slightly more damage out of it (not enough to make it a really great choice, but it doesn't suck, basically on a par with weapon specialization).

MC swordmage isn't bad here either, but then you have to STR/DEX and you're not really getting the best skill spread for the concept. OTOH it has pretty good synergy with the BS rogue options.