OD&D Item Saving Throws (AD&D & oD&D)

[MerricB]

One of my contentions about the D&D rules is that there are a number of areas where Gary Gygax failed to give a rule because it was in a previous edition of the rules. Thus, you require CHAINMAIL to use a lot of original D&D, and there are a number of areas in AD&D that aren't described because the rules are in oD&D.

Item Saving Throws are one that have caused trouble over the years. The AD&D DMG gives the rules for how they make or fail the checks, but doesn't actually say when to make the checks. So, we've seen over the years versions like "every time you get hit", "when you fail a save" or "when you fail a save with a natural 1".

However, the original D&D rules give guidelines as to when to use item saving throws! Monsters & Treasure, page 38, reads, "Magical items will, during the course of play, be struck by various forms of weapons. For the sake of simplicity, it is generally easier to assume that they survive unharmed if their wearer/user is not killed (exception, Helms). If the wearer is killed, or the items are alone, throw for them on the following table..."

AD&D 2E gave the rule as "when character failed saving throw or unattended", but - for various reasons - I prefer the oD&D rule and will be using it in my AD&D game.

Cheers!

 

[Water Bob]

Back in the day, we used the "If the PC fails a save, then his equipment has to make a check" rule.

Again, I don't know if I'd run it like that today. But, that's what we did back then. Some poor sop would get blasted by some acid spitting beastie, and then he'd lose his armor and sword and half of his equipment.

It was always real fun when the backpack didn't save, and then the flasks of oil didn't save. Burn, baby, burn. Disco inferno.

 

[kitcik]

Back in the day, we used the "If the PC fails a save, then his equipment has to make a check" rule.

Again, I don't know if I'd run it like that today. But, that's what we did back then. Some poor sop would get blasted by some acid spitting beastie, and then he'd lose his armor and sword and half of his equipment.

It was always real fun when the backpack didn't save, and then the flasks of oil didn't save. Burn, baby, burn. Disco inferno.

That's EXACTLY what we did - and the backpack failure was always dramatic. We had high level wizards doing spell research to get new spells to protect their backpacks!

I would do it the same today. Since GP / magic value = XP, all you have to do is drop more magic and less GP to make up for the lost items.

Those were the days!! Now you have me in 1E withdrawal...

 

[Water Bob]

Those were the days!! Now you have me in 1E withdrawal...

Yeah, I've got a soft spot for AD&D, no matter how screwy the rules were presented. It's still got a little something that no other D&D ruleset has been able to capture, imo.

 

[kitcik]

Recently there have been a lot of threads on how to restore caster/meleer balance in 3E, and I have suggested the restoration of real casting times and the nerfing of Concentration.

But, now that you have me thinking about it, this was another equalizing factor. Items saves were based on the actual material of the item, adjusted for +'s, and the actual type of damage it was threatened with - the most common being fire, lightning and (in our campaign) the dreaded "crushing blow." In all these cases, the fighter, with his metal items (armor, shield, weapon) with increasing +'s as he leveled was more likely to keep his stuff than the wizard with his paper scrolls and "thin wood" wands.

OK, clerics had the best of both worlds for the most part, but still it had an interesting effect on the game.

 

[grodog]

I've always played that item saves are only rolled when PCs fail saves, but the example in the PHB suggests that the items would need to roll to save just like a PC would:

Saving Throw

The chance to avoid or partially negate magical and breath attack forms is
known as the save. (Note that magic items and even normal items and
weapons must be saved for due to such attacks, falls or blows. Consider
the fate of a cloak when exposed to dragon fire, a suit of magic armor
struck by a lightning bolt, or a magic hammer flying through a cone of cold
prior to striking its target.) Yeur Dungeon Master has tables which show the
saving throw scores for these attack forms, by class of character, by level of
experience in class. These base numbers are modified by the power of the
attack, and by magical protections and character class and race.

I'm sure I've read somewhere the rule that you only roll an item save when the PC fails a save, but it doesn't appear to be the DMG, so....

 

[MerricB]

I'm sure I've read somewhere the rule that you only roll an item save when the PC fails a save, but it doesn't appear to be the DMG, so....

It's certainly written that way in the 2E DMG, so it might be from there you're remembering it.

One of my favourite "what's the point?" rules is that given for parrying in the AD&D PHB. Yes, you get to reduce their attack roll by your Strength modifier to hit, and you don't get to strike back in turn. For most characters, it does nothing. For a few, it gives a -1 modifier for them to hit. Hardly seems worth it...

Cheers!

 

[Water Bob]

For most characters, it does nothing. For a few, it gives a -1 modifier for them to hit. Hardly seems worth it...

Ah, that's true! I forgot that the default chargen method for AD&D was hard core: Roll 3d6, one time, for each stat specifically. Whatever you rolled was the stat you got--no arrangment to taste. Once you had all six stats, you looked at what character class your character COULD be--you didn't roll up a specific type of character. Paladins and the other elite classes were truly rare given the default AD&D chargen system.

And, since only the top third of the stat numbers receive a bonus, there were a lot of characters with stats with no type of bonus at all.

 

[kitcik]

We originally did 3d6, arrange to taste. You could scrub up to 2 characters, but had to take the 3rd (no lookbacks, you scrub it, it's gone). Not many paladins or bards. Although if you rolled 2 17's by some miracle, paladin was popular - that PFE 10' radius rocked.

Eventually we went to 4d6, arrange to taste.

Not a matter of everyone needing good stats, but it is nice to have a bonus in your primary as it gives you a going-in sense of being special.

My 1E books are in boxes or I would try to look up the item save rules.

 

[MerricB]

Ah, that's true! I forgot that the default chargen method for AD&D was hard core: Roll 3d6, one time, for each stat specifically.

Actually, it isn't. In fact, there isn't a default generation system - the DM chooses one of the systems in the DMG, all of which are nicer than "3d6 in order, once".

We're using 4d6, best three, roll six times and assign as desired.

Strength:
16: +1 to damage
17: +1 to hit and damage
18: +1 to hit and +2 to damage
18: exceptional for fighters all the way to +3/+6, but normally +1/+3.

You really need very high Str to get a bonus!

Cheers!