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D&D 4E How could 4E be more elegant?

Ry

Explorer
I know we've been seeing these threads every day, but I thought this one might pull out a different sample.

My suggestions (obviously mentioned before):

Caster Level increasing like BAB
Uniform system for Advanced Combat Actions (i.e. Iron Might stunts, with Grapple / Trip / Sunder Skills)
Sneak and Perception skills
Spells only have one level, not different ones depending on who's learning it
No duplicate systems (saves+Spell Resistance, miss chance + AC)
Classes balanced without the feat system
Fewer, more generalized feats.
Swift, Interrupt, and "Opportunity" actions cleaned up.
Spell "levels" called "orders" or "degrees" to distinguish from levels of the other sorts.
 
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adriayna

First Post
Elegant? I've got an answer for flexible.

I think the 4.0 magic system should be modeled after the 3.5 psionics system. More adaptable, more fun. The system would work well for spontaneous casters, but I'm not sure how they would work wizards into the equation.
 

adriayna said:
but I'm not sure how they would work wizards into the equation.

Wizards prepare a list of spells every morning, and may then spend their spell points to cast spells from that specific list at will.

In essence, they reset their "spells known" list every day. More flexibility over the long run, but the sorcerer gains more points, so he can cast more.
 

drothgery

First Post
rycanada said:
Sneak and Perception skills

Actually, generalize that into fewer, and more general skills.
Climb, jump, swim -> athletics
Tumble, balance -> acrobatics
Diplomacy, intimidate, bluff -> persuade
etc.

This probably doesn't work well for languages, knowledge skills, crafts, professions, and perform, but I'm sure smart game designers could think of something.
 

A'koss

Explorer
1. Caster level increasing like BAB is a good idea.
2. As mentioned, greatly simplify the skills system by merging a number of related skills under one roof. Eg. Stealth (Hide + Move Silently).
3. Iterative Attacks - Reduce to one BAB number, multiple attacks must be chosen at a cumulative penalty of -4 to hit on all attacks (per each additional attack). Eg. BAB: 1 attack @ +20, 2 attacks @ +16 each, 3 attacks @ +12 each... Cuts down on excess, useless attacks at higher levels and creates tactical options for characters.
4. Magic - weaken it all-around but then incorporate a spell point system which allows wizards to cast more spells on the whole. No preparation, just a Spell Point Recovery Rate. You can cast whatever spells you know so long as you have the SPs to do so. I'd alter all the spells I could so that they'd require attack rolls to hit or to be the most effective. You hurl fireballs, lash out with lightning...
5. HPs should be static or near static and Con should no longer factor in thier level by level increase. This is just a part of A'koss's Game Balance Smackdown but this thread is only about simplifying so I'll do my best not to derail it... yet. ;)
6. Instead of +1 Ability Point every 4 levels, +1 to every ability point every 5 levels. Start curbing stat disparties...

A'koss.
 
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maddman75

First Post
Drop the spell list altogether, in favor of some kind of dynamic sorcery. Make it skill based, and you can do anything you want, so long as you make your skill check. So a skill check in Evocation magic could do so much damage, energy type and AoE, 3 of targets, etc. are irrelevent. Enchantment could be used to improve attributes, AC, attacks, and so on temporarily, or force others to your will. And so on.

Collapse the skill list - Climb, Swim, Balance, Tumble, and Jumping all become acrobatics. Hide, move silently, and sleight of hand all become stealth. Spot, Search, and Listen all become Notice. Divorce the skill from a fixed stat, and use a skill+stat determination for each bonus. So for instance, climbing a wall is Acrobatics + STR, while tightrope walking is Acrobatics + DEX.

Make turning undead make sense. Use an already existing mechanic, like oh say *A WILL SAVE* instead of the convoluted tack-on that they now have.

Change the grapple rules dramatically. Get rid of an AoO for grappling or punching, just resolve it as another attack. I doubt the d3 damage will render weapons irrelevent.

AoOs have to be simplified. Maybe get rid of movement AoOs altogether. Other games do just fine without them. Sure you can run right past the guards up to the BBEG - and now you're surrounded.

Change the way hit points/ healing works so that Clerics are not required for a party. Also, making the game less lethal at higher levels would help too.

That would be a heckuva start.
 
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reanjr

First Post
Uniform system for Advanced Combat Actions (i.e. Iron Might stunts, with Grapple / Trip / Sunder Skills)

This is actually the only one I agree with being elegant.

rycanada said:
Caster Level increasing like BAB

I just can't see how adding another multiclass-breaking issue such as rounded fractional bonuses can be more elegant. I think the BAB system as it is is horrible.

Sneak and Perception skills

This may be elegant on paper, but what about blind or deaf creatures? What about when you need to know what the character noticed? What about underwater where sound carries dramatically better than light? What about in a silenced area? By removing two lines from the character sheet, you have created a whole slew of "exception" rules to account for this missing information. Sneak and Perception are the very antithesis of elegance.

Spells only have one level, not different ones depending on who's learning it

I'd go further and say that they should have a difficulty entirely unrelated to level.

No duplicate systems (saves+Spell Resistance, miss chance + AC)

Again (similar to the Sneak/Perception) you've removed a simple rule that everyone seems to understand pretty well (in my experience) and cluttered it with monsters who have to have "exception" rules added to them to maintain flavor and balance.

Classes balanced without the feat system

The classes aren't balanced WITH the feat system. The feat system isn't even balanced with itself. I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at here.

Fewer, more generalized feats.

I'm not sure what you mean by generalized, but I agree fewer feats is a good thing. I think they should remove all feats that add a bonus to something. Feats should represent new abilities, not improved old abilities. That's what class levels and skills represent well; feats do not.

Swift, Interrupt, and "Opportunity" actions cleaned up.

This is another area I think they should go further. There shouldn't even be different action types. There's absolutely no reason for them except that the game was designed to accomodate them so now they can't be taken out. This is an easy fix in a new system. You should be allowed 1 or 2 actions per round (doesn't really matter which) and there should be a unified way to exceed that number of actions. The attack option and BAB shouldn't be cluttered with multiple attacks at differing bonuses. A system that said you get 2 actions per round, and each additional action gives a -5 penalty to all actions would handle an even wider variety of actions (attacking multiple times, etc) in an easier and more intuitive fashion. Movement may or may not be an action, depending on how you want to run with it. Free actions simply would not be actions. Swift actions wouldn't be actions either, but would simply be something you can do once per round on your turn. Opportunities aren't actions. Interrupts are a bit tricker, but with careful wording I think you can fit this in without actually creating a new type of action.

Spell "levels" called "orders" or "degrees" to distinguish from levels of the other sorts.

I agree on principle, but there is the problem of adding even more English words to the list of things being said that can be confusing because they are game terms. I would suggest Difficulty as it is a term already used by the system, but in such a different context as it would never be confused. I would also go a step further and try to rethink the terms class level, character level, effective character level, and caster level. These, in my experience, cause WAY more confusion than spell level, though it is true that spell level comes up more often.

I think the way Psionics is presented is much more intuitive than the way spells are presented, even though the psionics system itself is arguably far more complicated than the spell system. The terminology chosen (powers, manifest, power points, psionic focus, etc.) is superb at making things very clear. If they could come up with something like that, I think things would be much easier for people to understand.
 

MoogleEmpMog

First Post
Adjusting the magic system would be first on my list, but it's probably the number one sacred cow of D&D. Instead, I'll settle for a few tweaks to make it balanced with:

Unified Action Structure

No standard, move or full-round actions. Just actions. You get two of them each turn, and can do whatever you like with them. You can use them both to attack, use them both to sling spells, use them both to move, or any combination of the above. You can even hold one or both to use as a reaction, a system which replaces attacks of opportunity.

The problem with this is that spellcasters, as presently written, break it. Badly. For that matter, the disparity between two-weapon (or sword-and-board) fighting and two-handed fighting could be said to break it, too.

A unified action structure needs spells that either "cost" more (that is, fewer are available, they have a drawback, or they have higher point costs in a spell point system), are weaker, or require both actions to cast. The latter is intriguing; essentially, it makes all spells cast like summons. Making shields more important and two-weapon fighting add an extra attack per action would solve the melee issues.

Why it's elegant: It's a single system where once there were 2-4, depending on the number of supplementary action types. It smoothes AoOs while leaving them potentially even more effective, and should speed combat in general.

Ability Modifiers

No 3-18 ability scores. Just an ability modifier, which in point-buy starts at -1 and scales between -4 and +4 for humans (somewhat akin to the SilCore setup). I'm not sure how to handle the roll xd6, drop lowest stat generation method using this system, though.

3e went leagues in the direction of design elegance by standardizing the bonuses from all ability scores, making them an integral part of the system, providing a mechanism for improving them, and balancing them against each other (better than they themselves believed). Removing the irrelevant scores in favor of meaningful modifiers would complete the process.

Why it's elegant: Ability scores are counterintuitive and add to the calculations needed in character creation. Ability modifiers are all the game ever references, so the scores are simply a needless complication.

Those are the two that leap to my mind.
 

fuindordm

Adventurer
rycanada said:
Spells only have one level, not different ones depending on who's learning it

Can't say I agree with that one. Right now that's about the only thing distinguishing the
different styles of magic. If all spells have the same level and same effect for all casters,
clerics and wizards will become practically indistinguishable.

Ben
 

maddman75

First Post
fuindordm said:
Can't say I agree with that one. Right now that's about the only thing distinguishing the
different styles of magic. If all spells have the same level and same effect for all casters,
clerics and wizards will become practically indistinguishable.

Ben

Oh, there's another one. Lose the distinction between the different styles of magic.

- cow-slayer maddman
 

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