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D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

Plan to adopt the new core rules?

  • Yep

    Votes: 257 53.4%
  • Nope

    Votes: 224 46.6%

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Only matters if you're rocking up to the player and demanding they name every town where it will work in order to prove a pedantic point.

Otherwise it only works where it's invoked.
It doesn't work that way unless the world doesn't exist outside of wherever the PCs are at, with everything waiting in the back to be pulled out for the PCs as they need it.

Some of us like a coherent world where things exist outside of the PCs. In such a world if it can and does work in every town, there has to be someone in every town that the PC knows.
If there's a settlement in that desert and they invoke the ability, then yeah. So what?
Where in the ability does it require a settlement in order to work? From what I can see it only requires someone not a PC to be local to you.
 

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Vaalingrade

Legend
It doesn't work that way unless the world doesn't exist outside of wherever the PCs are at, with everything waiting in the back to be pulled out for the PCs as they need it.
So it doesn't work.

Do you know the name, race and serial number of every blacksmith in every town 'just in case'? There's a 100% chance someone will say 'yes', but realistically, no.

Regardless of how 'coherent' someone might want to say their world is, they're not procedurally generating everything in the universe and eventually you have to produce something on the fly to respond to the PCs.

Some of us like a coherent world where things exist outside of the PCs. In such a world if it can and does work in every town, there has to be someone in every town that the PC knows.
And someone already there can now know the PC upon invocation of the ability. There's no way of knowing until the moment, so there's no coherency lost.

Where in the ability does it require a settlement in order to work? From what I can see it only requires someone not a PC to be local to you.
Oh goody, I get to play the exact words game now!

Someone 'just passing through' is not local. They have to be like, actually local. so maybe not a town, but they at least need to have a hut nearby or something.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So it doesn't work.

Do you know the name, race and serial number of every blacksmith in every town 'just in case'? There's a 100% chance someone will say 'yes', but realistically, no.
Nope, but I do know where there are blacksmiths and where there aren't. Walk into a quasi-medieval town and you will find one. Walk into an island village where they don't use metal and you won't.

What isn't going to happen is for every town not to have a blacksmith unless the PCs want to find one, and then suddenly one appears no matter where they are at with no chance for failure.
Regardless of how 'coherent' someone might want to say their world is, they're not procedurally generating everything in the universe and eventually you have to produce something on the fly to respond to the PCs.
Absolutely. The thing is, what we are producing on the fly is according to that coherence, so you're not going to find a bunch of caveman knights in shining armor in a remote island caveman village. You'll find stone age cavemen. Aaaaaaaaand, no criminal contact to get a message out. ;)
Someone 'just passing through' is not local. They have to be like, actually local. so maybe not a town, but they at least need to have a hut nearby or something.
Just has to relate to a particular area, so a local elf behind a local forest tree is local to the PC. :p
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Nope, but I do know where there are blacksmiths and where there aren't. Walk into a quasi-medieval town and you will find one. Walk into an island village where they don't use metal and you won't.

What isn't going to happen is for every town not to have a blacksmith unless the PCs want to find one, and then suddenly one appears no matter where they are at with no chance for failure.

Absolutely. The thing is, what we are producing on the fly is according to that coherence, so you're not going to find a bunch of caveman knights in shining armor in a remote island caveman village. You'll find stone age cavemen. Aaaaaaaaand, no criminal contact to get a message out. ;)

Just has to relate to a particular area, so a local elf behind a local forest tree is local to the PC. :p
And they will recognize a folk hero and noble from a future point in the timeline of a different world as being noble and folk hero along with what those things are even if the PCs have been acting completely in contradiction of things like noblesse oblige from session zero
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And they will recognize a folk hero and noble from a future point in the timeline of a different world as being noble and folk hero along with what those things are even if the PCs have been acting completely in contradiction of things like noblesse oblige from session zero
What gets me about the idea that noble recognizes noble is that rogues/conmen can impersonate nobles and often get away with it, so it can't be something inherent to the title. It also means that anyone with decent deception/persuasion would be able to use the noble background ability.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
And this is the crux of the argument. It's not that most Background features are a big deal, I think the only one I've ever heard complaints about was the Outlander basically destroying old school survival exploration.

It just comes down to how strongly you feel about verisimilitude. The background features are metagame elements, and 5e is pretty light on those, to the point that the few that do exist, get a lot of notice. More than that, they are metagame elements that the DM is urged to make work, and are invoked by the players, not the DM, who is, by actual definition in the DMG, the "Master of Worlds".

No, there's not much good reason to deny a Background Feature being used from a "it's a game" standpoint. But a lot of people, to varying degrees, are very attached to having a cohesive narrative. Upthread a ways back, I pointed out how these sort of coincidences of "just happening to know a guy" are a staple of the kinds of pulp stories that D&D was built on.

But not everyone wants to play that game. Maybe they want a grittier, closer to the ground experience. Thieves' World instead of Leiber or Tolkien. A metagame element that can be introduced at any time, where it would be completely unbelievable might take some people out of the story.

And immersion is important to a lot of people.

As has been noted, we make exceptions for spells generally because we accept (or have been trained to accept) the concept that magic can do amazing things that not-magic can't. The other day I watched Seraphim Falls for the first time, and I really enjoyed it, yet was surprised to find it was panned for it's few "maybe supernatural" elements. "What, did these people not see Pale Rider?"

But it just goes to show, D&D can be played in a lot of ways, and some of those ways have no room for "oh hey, guys, it's my cousin's sister's brother! He can help us!" That doesn't make them bad, it might make them not your preferred style, but it doesn't make them bad.

Like, Lanefan and his desire to make climbing out of ravine potentially an all day challenge that costs resources or a blip on the radar, depending on a single die roll? Not my cup of tea. I don't think my players would enjoy that. But, by all accounts, his players do.

And I can't say "well, that's not D&D" because D&D is a big tent. But Backgrounds, as presented, don't work with all the ways D&D can be played, and the books don't take that into account. Not once. They say "these are Backgrounds, DM, make 'em work".

Just as there are DM's who want there to be a chance for spells to fail when cast, or worse, have demons show up on occasion to tear the Wizard apart for daring to cast magic missile, there are going to be DM's who are going to look at a rules element like that and balk.

Upthread, I gave of examples of this very thing happening, and it can happen at a lot of tables, even tables run by DM's who would be on board with this sort of thing, but in the moment, have a knee jerk reaction of "this ruins my story" or "this seems too easy" or "where's that cool scene with my annoying bureaucrat?".

It's a proud nail. It sticks out because it appears to be saying "this is how D&D should be run" to some people. But D&D is for everyone, not just those of us who might be perfectly happy with giving players more agency in our games.

And it's changing. For better or for worse remains to be seen. And here's the thing- if you like the way it is, you can keep using it. Just as people who don't like it, don't.

I think by now everyone knows, you're not going to change the minds of those who don't like Background Features. I think that's a shame, because they can be great tools, but I also know that not every tool is needed for every job. I don't need a ball peen hammer (I hope) to fix a blue screen on my computer or unclog a drain. You probably shouldn't use a plunger to fix a brake line.

Of course, this post will get some likes, but I know others will ignore it and continue the debate, lol.
This post pretty much says it all. You did a much better job here, IMO, of saying what I've been trying to. Thanks!
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Yeah. Only "occasionally" seems to mean "every single time, because the DM is going to manipulate the math until the every action is an exercise in punishment.
Why are you assuming that every DM is going to go out of their way to punish the players?

Good grief, I've climbed out of more than a few ravines. I've never broken any bones. I've never suffered more than a skinned knee. Yet, here we are, with a fairly significant chance that climbing out of a ravine will damage the party enough to be actually noticed.
And some people die just from a light conk to the chest or head. People are funny that way. We're a bit like diamonds. Very strong and hard, but hit us at the wrong point and we shatter.

Most importantly, how do you, as a PC, know that the ravine is pointless and has nothing to do with the adventure? How would your PC know what traps the BBEG has laid for you? The only way you could know is if you were using meta-knowledge.

At my table, we'll sometimes call for rolls just to see how well or quickly a task is performed, not if. For climbing out a ravine, a bad roll might mean it takes many hours and a good roll might mean it only takes a short time. Which means that, if you had a time crunch on your hand, how you handle this ravine could be very, very important. Do you go around it, meaning you definitely lose time, or do you try to climb down and then up, possibly getting a short cut but possibly making things worse?

I mean, good grief, in our session last night I declared that I stabbed a dagger into a door. Not to break the door. Just stab a dagger into the door.

And the DM insisted that I roll an attack. After all, I might roll a 1 and critical fumble. FFS. It's so frustratingly pointless.
OK, I would say that was a bit pedantic. On the other hand, why did you decide to stab a door? Did you have an in-character reason, or were you being lolrandom? If it's the latter, what the DM should have done is talk to you out of character rather than try to deal with it in-game. In-game solutions for out-of-game problems never work.

It should come as no surprise that we probably would not enjoy each other's games. :D We are not going to see eye to eye here. For me, in my perfect world, The Lord of the Rings is 90 pages long and starts in Mordor. I am simply not interested in "the journey" very much any more. We have a goal - go there. I don't want fifteen different sidebars going on. I will happily ignore every single side quest you put in front of me. I will gleefully ignore 90% of things in a campaign that aren't directly related to the main plot of the campaign. I simply do not care anymore. I've had all caring beaten out of me by an endless stream of DM's who seem to think that every single trivial, pointless exercise needs to be played out in excruciating detail.

So, no. I no longer care. As a DM, I would never in a million years have five different ships going to the same destination. You'd get one. And, unless there was something particularly interesting that needed to be doing on the way from A to B, I'm simply going to redline the journey and get to the next thing that actually advances the plot story of the game. You want to put me in the drivers seat? Great. I'll do that too. But, that means when I give you a goal, I expect that the campaign will be about that goal until that goal is achieved. And, again, I will ignore to the best of my ability anything that isn't part of that goal. Linear or sandbox, I'm pretty content so long as we're not spending endless time on pointless, meaningless play.
So I have to ask: why do you even play TTRPGs? Why not just play non-RPG video games, or board games? It's not for the journey and it doesn't sound like it's for the "roleplaying with your friends" part of it either. So what do you get out of it?
 

Oofta

Legend
What gets me about the idea that noble recognizes noble is that rogues/conmen can impersonate nobles and often get away with it, so it can't be something inherent to the title. It also means that anyone with decent deception/persuasion would be able to use the noble background ability.

It's also a troubling idea to me that certain people are inherently "better" somehow. That there's some aura of "this is an exceptional person, bow down to them". Blech. Who your parents are does not make you special or set you apart if people don't know who your parents are or if they don't care.

Take away the clothes, the reputation, the noble bling and you have just a person. A person that may or may not act like a noble depending on what the local culture expects out of nobility. Someone who is decent at deception who happened to be the court jester could put on airs just as well as any noble born individual, perhaps better.

It also assumes that every country, every region values nobility no matter what noble family you're from. Does the son of an orc king rate as much respect as that of an elven noble? Seems to me it depends on who you're trying to impress.
 

Oofta

Legend
I'm just trying to imagine this noble
download (67).jpg

being automatically accepted and invited to have an audience with this one
download (68).jpg


because they knock on the castle door and claim to be nobility.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
It's also a troubling idea to me that certain people are inherently "better" somehow. That there's some aura of "this is an exceptional person, bow down to them". Blech. Who your parents are does not make you special or set you apart if people don't know who your parents are or if they don't care.

Take away the clothes, the reputation, the noble bling and you have just a person. A person that may or may not act like a noble depending on what the local culture expects out of nobility. Someone who is decent at deception who happened to be the court jester could put on airs just as well as any noble born individual, perhaps better.

It also assumes that every country, every region values nobility no matter what noble family you're from. Does the son of an orc king rate as much respect as that of an elven noble? Seems to me it depends on who you're trying to impress.

Tangentially IRL...


and

 

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