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D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

Plan to adopt the new core rules?

  • Yep

    Votes: 257 53.4%
  • Nope

    Votes: 224 46.6%

Hussar

Legend
So... why the pushback when someone tries to use it? It's not the "Insta-win" button that some are trying to make it out to be. Rather, it is a basic feature of the PC that, when invoked, develops their character arc and can either push the overall story in interesting directions or simply provide a fun vignette or side-story.
Because, if the players attempt anything, there must be the following:

1. A chance of failure. You must NEVER allow the players to just do something. Unless, of course, they use magic. Which, in that case, automatic success is fine.

2. A significant amount of time spent at the table using the ability. It's not enough to simply invoke it. One must, in character, describe in excruciating detail, exactly where you are going and how you are going to find your contact. After that, you must, again in detail, explain exactly how this messenger is going to get said message to whereever the recipient is.

3. All of the above MUST satisfy the DM's sense of plausibility. That you, the player, might think that it's plausible, is not good enough. You must, above all, make sure that your explanation is satisfactory to the DM.

At least, I think that's where the push back comes from. But, then, I'm pretty biased here. :p To me, the player makes the declaration, and I, as DM, honor the player's wishes and move on. But, apparently, that's the wrong way to play D&D.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I can't see who you are arguing against but, if we're debating about the Criminal background, I think we should revisit the wording of the Feature (PHB p. 129):

You have a reliable and trustworthy contact who acts as your liaison to a network of other criminals. You know how to get messages to and from your contact, even over great distances; specifically, you know the local messengers, corrupt caravan masters, and seedy sailors who can deliver messages for you.

Ok, so maybe we should step back and consider a few things about this Background Feature:
1. How does the Feature work?
2. What does the PC gain from using the Feature?
2. How can a DM make this Feature jive with the fiction?

As a PC with the Criminal Background, you have a contact and you know how to get messages to and from your contact. Doesn't mean the contact always has an answer or a way to help you if it doesn't make sense in the fiction and it doesn't necessarily mean that the delivery of said message happens in a timeframe that is immediate or useful.

You also know the local messengers (etc) that can help you achieve this delivery of said message. Your Background has to do with where you came from - what you did before you started adventuring (PHB p125). You know the folks in the area where you were a criminal - maybe that's a village or a town or a city or even a region where you were a criminal. You don't (necessarily) know the messengers (etc) all over the world. Point is to clarify that with the DM during character creation - neither the player nor the DM should be making assumptions.

Even if the contact is a great distance away, your local contacts can help you achieve the delivery of a message - that is, if you are in that local area. Beyond that, you know how to get messages to and from your contact. You still might have a chance to do it outside of your local network if you inquire with the right people. In a village of 30? Maybe there's someone who has sending stones that can reach your contact or someone else in your network. Maybe there's someone travelling to the big city down river next week. Maybe there's a travelling merchant. Maybe there's [insert reasonable fictional bit here]. In other words: this background feature can be invoked anywhere in the game world with a little creativity but, again, there is no guarantee on timeline to get messages to the contact and there is no guarantee to the actual benefit of getting said messages to your contact.

So... why the pushback when someone tries to use it? It's not the "Insta-win" button that some are trying to make it out to be. Rather, it is a basic feature of the PC that, when invoked, develops their character arc and can either push the overall story in interesting directions or simply provide a fun vignette or side-story.
Yep. Some people are saying that there is always someone local to you that can get that message out. Always. You should never say no to the ability. Obviously, many of us disagree with that notion.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yeah. Only "occasionally" seems to mean "every single time, because the DM is going to manipulate the math until the every action is an exercise in punishment.
You keep saying things like this, but that's not my experience from either side of the screen.
Again, I just have zero interest in this @Lanefan. I'm sorry but I don't. The ravine is pointless. Getting out of the ravine is pointless. We're going to get out. The ravine has nothing to do with the adventure. It's pointless die rolling for no reason other than the DM feels this bizarre need to roll dice. I mean, good grief, in our session last night I declared that I stabbed a dagger into a door. Not to break the door. Just stab a dagger into the door.

And the DM insisted that I roll an attack. After all, I might roll a 1 and critical fumble. FFS. It's so frustratingly pointless.
That does seem weird. I wouldn't have had you roll. The only way I'd have had you roll is if there was some valuable/secret/special spot on the door and I would need to know if you randomly hit it, but 99.99% of the time you'd have just stabbed the door and we'd move along with whatever roleplay followed.
 

mamba

Legend
I mean, good grief, in our session last night I declared that I stabbed a dagger into a door. Not to break the door. Just stab a dagger into the door.

And the DM insisted that I roll an attack. After all, I might roll a 1 and critical fumble.
yeah, that is completely unnecessary. I would not make you roll for that and we are on opposite sides on the feature debate and probably some other things (90 page LotR…)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Because, if the players attempt anything, there must be the following:

1. A chance of failure. You must NEVER allow the players to just do something. Unless, of course, they use magic. Which, in that case, automatic success is fine.

2. A significant amount of time spent at the table using the ability. It's not enough to simply invoke it. One must, in character, describe in excruciating detail, exactly where you are going and how you are going to find your contact. After that, you must, again in detail, explain exactly how this messenger is going to get said message to whereever the recipient is.

3. All of the above MUST satisfy the DM's sense of plausibility. That you, the player, might think that it's plausible, is not good enough. You must, above all, make sure that your explanation is satisfactory to the DM.

At least, I think that's where the push back comes from. But, then, I'm pretty biased here. :p To me, the player makes the declaration, and I, as DM, honor the player's wishes and move on. But, apparently, that's the wrong way to play D&D.
1. A whole, whole, whole lot of us do in fact have auto-successes for mundane things. That statement is wrong about the vast majority of DMs who would occasionally say no to the ability when it doesn't make sense to use it.

2. This is purely a playstyle preference. I have chosen not to play with people who don't like to play that way, so not one player at my table finds it "excruciating" and instead finds it to be a lot of fun. Obviously it's not your playstyle preference, but it's not helpful to criticize it so heavily when people talk about it for their games.

3. Similar to #2, I have also found people who would agree with me that it's completely implausible to find a local contact in the middle of the woods or desert, in a small town of 300 that you've never been to, or on the 5th Heaven where no criminals exist. If you find those things plausible, I'm at a loss for how.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
yeah, that is completely unnecessary. I would not make you roll for that and we are on opposite sides on the feature debate and probably some other things (90 page LotR…)
Well, I mean if you cut out some of the exposition it would probably be somewhere around 90 pages INCLUDING travel!

Well, perhaps not. :p

Love me that Tolkien to the point where I even enjoy reading(and re-reading) the Silmarillion.
 

mamba

Legend
Well, I mean if you cut out some of the exposition it would probably be somewhere around 90 pages INCLUDING travel!
I am sure I can summarize it in that without losing anything relevant, I am also sure I would enjoy the result a lot less

Shorten the party in the beginning, throw out Bombadil, end with the coronation, that would be my changes ;)

Love me that Tolkien to the point where I even enjoy reading(and re-reading) the Silmarillion.
I read it once, not for me
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Love me that Tolkien to the point where I even enjoy reading(and re-reading) the Silmarillion.

My first copy of the Silmarillion fell apart from rereading years ago. The latest one with the author's art is a spectacular piece of publishing and replaced the previous hardcover I had.

For those who think that LotR is awfully verbose, the Quenta Silmarillion is the opposite. That's a lot of time and characters in not much space.
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Okay?

Is that supposed to be bad?

How is that supposed to support the idea that the ability literally means you know someone in every town? You happen to know someone in th towns where you invoke the ability.


I have no idea how you got to this question.

The whole point I've been making is that there's no good reason to deny access to that ability at all ever. How does that in any way bend all the way around in such a spine shattering contortion to 'this ability should be denied'?
And this is the crux of the argument. It's not that most Background features are a big deal, I think the only one I've ever heard complaints about was the Outlander basically destroying old school survival exploration.

It just comes down to how strongly you feel about verisimilitude. The background features are metagame elements, and 5e is pretty light on those, to the point that the few that do exist, get a lot of notice. More than that, they are metagame elements that the DM is urged to make work, and are invoked by the players, not the DM, who is, by actual definition in the DMG, the "Master of Worlds".

No, there's not much good reason to deny a Background Feature being used from a "it's a game" standpoint. But a lot of people, to varying degrees, are very attached to having a cohesive narrative. Upthread a ways back, I pointed out how these sort of coincidences of "just happening to know a guy" are a staple of the kinds of pulp stories that D&D was built on.

But not everyone wants to play that game. Maybe they want a grittier, closer to the ground experience. Thieves' World instead of Leiber or Tolkien. A metagame element that can be introduced at any time, where it would be completely unbelievable might take some people out of the story.

And immersion is important to a lot of people.

As has been noted, we make exceptions for spells generally because we accept (or have been trained to accept) the concept that magic can do amazing things that not-magic can't. The other day I watched Seraphim Falls for the first time, and I really enjoyed it, yet was surprised to find it was panned for it's few "maybe supernatural" elements. "What, did these people not see Pale Rider?"

But it just goes to show, D&D can be played in a lot of ways, and some of those ways have no room for "oh hey, guys, it's my cousin's sister's brother! He can help us!" That doesn't make them bad, it might make them not your preferred style, but it doesn't make them bad.

Like, Lanefan and his desire to make climbing out of ravine potentially an all day challenge that costs resources or a blip on the radar, depending on a single die roll? Not my cup of tea. I don't think my players would enjoy that. But, by all accounts, his players do.

And I can't say "well, that's not D&D" because D&D is a big tent. But Backgrounds, as presented, don't work with all the ways D&D can be played, and the books don't take that into account. Not once. They say "these are Backgrounds, DM, make 'em work".

Just as there are DM's who want there to be a chance for spells to fail when cast, or worse, have demons show up on occasion to tear the Wizard apart for daring to cast magic missile, there are going to be DM's who are going to look at a rules element like that and balk.

Upthread, I gave of examples of this very thing happening, and it can happen at a lot of tables, even tables run by DM's who would be on board with this sort of thing, but in the moment, have a knee jerk reaction of "this ruins my story" or "this seems too easy" or "where's that cool scene with my annoying bureaucrat?".

It's a proud nail. It sticks out because it appears to be saying "this is how D&D should be run" to some people. But D&D is for everyone, not just those of us who might be perfectly happy with giving players more agency in our games.

And it's changing. For better or for worse remains to be seen. And here's the thing- if you like the way it is, you can keep using it. Just as people who don't like it, don't.

I think by now everyone knows, you're not going to change the minds of those who don't like Background Features. I think that's a shame, because they can be great tools, but I also know that not every tool is needed for every job. I don't need a ball peen hammer (I hope) to fix a blue screen on my computer or unclog a drain. You probably shouldn't use a plunger to fix a brake line.

Of course, this post will get some likes, but I know others will ignore it and continue the debate, lol.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Because you can't name a town where it won't work. That means someone he knows is in every last one of those towns, and out in the middle of nowhere local to the PC, to carry messages.
Only matters if you're rocking up to the player and demanding they name every town where it will work in order to prove a pedantic point.

Otherwise it only works where it's invoked.

Right, so it works in the middle of a desert, because someone is going to be wandering by or something, local to him to carry the message.
If there's a settlement in that desert and they invoke the ability, then yeah. So what?

It's that sort of absurdity which causes us to say no to abilities which say such absurd things happen.
It's only absurd when people bend over backward to make it so without even considering it from a narrative perspective instead of bloody-minded literalism.
 

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