Level Up (A5E) Buffing Monsters

[Guy Icognito]

Level Up is planned to let players make a decision each level. New powers and class features
This is going to make the character much more powerful. If each decision point buffs a character by 0.5% over the baseline non-choice, that's a 5% power increase by level 10
You just need to look at the difference in power level between games that use feats and games that don't. Then double the difference.

Because, to some degree, "meaningful" character choices mean picking the best choice. Choosing between cosmetic options won't satisfy. Nor will a wealth of choices that are slightly worse than the option in the PH

The difference in power level between characters in Level Up and the base game will be significant. Every monster will need a boost, that increases as their level goes up
Short of re-writing every monster in the MM, its easier to just have a way to pop a buff on existing monsters

And it should be possible to give monsters a free boost to adjust for optimising and munchkin players. Because the power difference between regular Level Up players and players that build the best characters will also increase

 

[Morrus]

Level Up is planned to let players make a decision each level. New powers and class features
This is going to make the character much more powerful. If each decision point buffs a character by 0.5% over the baseline non-choice, that's a 5% power increase by level 10

Nah, it’s not. They can be more granular and add breadth and flesh out other pillars of play without drastically affecting power levels. At least if we do our job right.

 

[Stalker0]

I am still firmly in the camp that says 5e monsters are too easy in general. I don't mind your CR 1/8 - 1 monsters being somewhat of a cake walk, as early levels are meant to be training levels.

But especially starting around 5-6th, monster CRs are just not keeping up with what usual parties can do. Monsters for example do much less damage than even the general DMG guidance suggests they should for their CR.

In the interest of compatibility, I respect not going back and making general adjustments, but if any new monsters are made, I do think they should be stronger by CR than the MMI baseline.

 

[Morrus]

We have Paul Hughes on staff (Blog of Holding). There is no better 5E statistical expert, IMO, especially when it comes to monster stats and CRs.

 

[CapnZapp]

Monsters can (and should IMHO) get significant powerups, at least at CR 12 and up.

No, that isn't because player characters are about to be more powerful. It's because the 5E player characters are already too powerful for the MM monsters, right out the PHB gate!

The most pressing issue is giving monsters the tools they need to deliver their attacks. At level 15, say, a monster that just runs toward the enemy at Speed 25 is hopelessly outclassed, even when its bite might be fearsome. At that level, it's just too easy to keep it from ever reaching a hero.

Other things include the at-will teleportation given to select high-level monsters. By making that take the monster's entire action, the 5E devs basically neutered the ability. Spending your entire turn on movement, ending right next to a hero, just doesn't cut it in high-level combat.

Every non-grunt monster at high level needs at least one trick up its sleeve to surprise and confound players; a trick specifically designed to defeat the rote precautions heroes take and to deliver significant damage (or debuff, etc) forcing the heroes to scramble.

5E did away with the minigame of figuring out how to defeat a monster in its drive for simplicity. At low level that is okay.

But the game does not need to cater to newbs at high level. It is okay to assume a certain system mastery for level 15 heroes. Not just for Level Up obviously, but for the base game of 5E too.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Nah, it’s not. They can be more granular and add breadth and flesh out other pillars of play without drastically affecting power levels. At least if we do our job right.

I'm really looking forward to how you do that. I have no idea how you can increase choice without increasing power level.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Monsters can (and should IMHO) get significant powerups, at least at CR 12 and up.

No, that isn't because player characters are about to be more powerful. It's because the 5E player characters are already too powerful for the MM monsters, right out the PHB gate!

The most pressing issue is giving monsters the tools they need to deliver their attacks. At level 15, say, a monster that just runs toward the enemy at Speed 25 is hopelessly outclassed, even when its bite might be fearsome. At that level, it's just too easy to keep it from ever reaching a hero.

Other things include the at-will teleportation given to select high-level monsters. By making that take the monster's entire action, the 5E devs basically neutered the ability. Spending your entire turn on movement, ending right next to a hero, just doesn't cut it in high-level combat.

Every non-grunt monster at high level needs at least one trick up its sleeve to surprise and confound players; a trick specifically designed to defeat the rote precautions heroes take and to deliver significant damage (or debuff, etc) forcing the heroes to scramble.

5E did away with the minigame of figuring out how to defeat a monster in its drive for simplicity. At low level that is okay.

But the game does not need to cater to newbs at high level. It is okay to assume a certain system mastery for level 15 heroes. Not just for Level Up obviously, but for the base game of 5E too.

I think monsters are set to be a fun challenge for parties without feats or multiclassing, and little skill at optimization. Since I've never been in a non-con game with more than one player like that, IME monsters are dangerously underpowered. Of course, YMMV, but I think Level Up has to assume optimization skill from the players.

 

[tetrasodium]

I think monsters are set to be a fun challenge for parties without feats or multiclassing, and little skill at optimization. Since I've never been in a non-con game with more than one player like that, IME monsters are dangerously underpowered. Of course, YMMV, but I think Level Up has to assume optimization skill from the players.

Probably more like no feats no magic items no multiclass.... then they turned everything so that dark and gritty against all odds game would still feel like some heavy magic loot with plentiful and cheap recovery magic items... somehow without realizing that nobody played that way regularly and they did it deliberately for a different feel that does not include treating pit fiends like caged mice when they did

 

[Micah Sweet]

Probably more like no feats no magic items no multiclass.... then they turned everything so that dark and gritty against all odds game would still feel like some heavy magic loot with plentiful and cheap recovery magic items... somehow without realizing that nobody played that way regularly and they did it deliberately for a different feel that does not include treating pit fiends like cages mice

I forgot about magic items (ironic since they're actually a big problem in one of my games).

 

[FireLance]

Yes, I think magic items throw off the monster challenge math more than any other factor. I believe the game is balanced on the assumption that the PCs have no magic items, so as they accumulate more, the published encounter guidelines get less useful.