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D&D 4E Bridging the cognitive gap between how the game rules work and what they tell us about the setting

Bagpuss

Legend
Thank you for proving my point.

Sure, you can do this but this means moving fortune to the beginning. You are confirming what I said about the players proposition existing only as a game proposition until after the fortune is determined and the adjudication applied. Only then does the player know what he did.

That's pretty much true of any RPG where chance is involved until the dice are rolled you don't know what you achieve, I'm not sure what you are saying is an aspect of 4E here.

Prior to that point, his proposition existed only as a game mechanic. "Leg sweep" was determined to have nothing to do with sweeping legs, and the adjudication retroactively determined what the proposition was.
The mechanics just say the target is knocked prone, the flavour text in 4E is just one example of how that can occur not the only one. I agree that's different than say 1st edition spells where the text were the rules and flavour and often open to interpretation because of language used.

Still it is no different than a successful attack roll with a sword means the character does damage, if that was a downward slash, thrust or whatever doesn't change the mechanics but the description is left up to the player.
 

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Bagpuss

Legend
I mean, it's not just the problem of the hit points.

Take for example the idea of "minions". Minions are most defined by the 4e rule: "Hit points: 1, a missed attack never damages a minion." Now I can easily understand what that represents in the game, what does that rule represent in terms of the in universe reality? These creatures are never injured. If they are hit, they are dead. Even the lightest damage kills them. A rat is more durable. OK, but then a minion can be of any level - that was the thing that made them as a game mechanic interesting. You could have 12th level or 15th level minions. Now try to imagine them living in the same world and same story as the PCs. Do they die when they burn their hands on hot soup?
When they stay out for an hour in a sleet storm, is that fatal?

Also minions are only ever minions compared to the players. Something that would have been a normal monster when they encountered it at 3rd level, could be a minion when they encounter it at 6th. If the players aren't fighting them it doesn't really matter what they are. Of course they are fine with a bit of soup or sleet.

Imagine for a second what hit points are supposed to represent and this otherwise highly skilled warrior who has trained for years has none of them, and indeed so few of them that one training accident or one tumble down a flight of stairs is always fatal.
Again minion is a mechanic that only matters when compared to the characters, not compared to stairs.

It would be one thing if you said minions had hit points equal to their level. That could be rectified. But the fact that they don't points to the real reason why minions have 1 hit point, and it's not anything to do with the game universe - it's to avoid having any bookkeeping. It's really an entirely out of game justification.

It is very much something to do with the game universe, as the universe is only experienced by how the players interact with it. A minion is a minor challenge to the PCs something they can easily dispatch, but could still present some sort of threat. It has a clear game justification it simulates those faceless opponents heros fight in film and fiction that are a hurdle on the way to fighting the main villain and are dispatched with a quick thrust, or a minor spell as they fight there way to a more significant opponent.

If it only takes one hit to remove an opponent, then there is no point in tracking hit point for it.


What you have to do to make this make any sense is say that the rules really aren't modelling anything about the game universe.

The are modelling something about the game universe, what sort of challenge these creatures are compared to the main characters.

The metarule here is "Things that are off stage or don't involve interacting with the PCs don't follow the games rules." The same character doesn't have a consistent set of stats and attributes, but rather acquires a different set of stats and attributes depending on its role in the envisioned story. The metagame is paramount, not the simulated reality.

No game simulates reality. They all make certain concessions. What 4E does is make an effort simulate heroic fiction, where you see characters despatch enemies with a simple single thrust, not something that D&D did reliably before or since. (Well maybe in AD&D when fighters could attack a number of less than 1d8 hit dice creatures in their turn equal to their level).

The same character has a different stat block depending on whether it is an antagonist, a side character, a NPC's minion, a PC's henchmen, or a PC. Stats weren't modelling any consistent reality in 4e.

From the PC perspective the reality is consistent. Something becomes a minion because you have become so more powerful so it presents less of a challenge. The PC isn't aware of hit points just that they are stronger.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Also minions are only ever minions compared to the players. Something that would have been a normal monster when they encountered it at 3rd level, could be a minion when they encounter it at 6th. If the players aren't fighting them it doesn't really matter what they are...

I don't know what you think you are trying to teach me or convince me of. I understand fully well how 4e is supposed to be played. But if you wish to continue to illustrate my points for me, by all means continue.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
It was and it wasn't a change.

It was fairly different from 3e where mechanics were fairly consistent for monsters and PCs.

For OD&D, Basic, and AD&D 1e and 2e monsters were different from PCs who also had some differences from NPCs.
The thing to remember here is that, in many of these cases, the differences were reflective of in-character aspects of what the system was telling us (i.e. what it said about the "implied setting"). In AD&D 1E, for instance, Gary Gygax talks about the humanocentricism that the game assumes on page 21 of the DMG. But while he doesn't expressly delineate how this manifests in decreasing potential for improvement the further away you get from humanity, we can see it in action:
  • Humans are the saiyans wunderkind of the game world, able to advance without limit in all classes, save for those which only have a limited number of levels to advance through.
  • Demihumans have some degree of selection, but there are many classes for which they're simply not human enough to qualify, and others for which their lack of humanity (even for half-human races) limits how high their potential can reach. Thieves are an exception, but I always saw that as having to do with how most thief abilities are static percentages rather than opposed checks (i.e. they're about personal skill rather than mastering external forces such as magic or overcoming direct opposition by other beings in combat, etc.; half-orcs have unlimited advancement as assassins, but assassins top out at 15th level, so that's moot).
  • Humanoids such as orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, etc. have very little potential. A few reference having a chieftain or local leader with slightly better attacks and Hit Dice, and some have very limited magical potential (i.e. shamans and witch doctors), but other than noting how there'll often be children with weaker statistics, humanoids can't really become more than they are.
  • Other monsters don't even have that. They might be impressively powerful (e.g. a beholder), but other than growing from childhood to maturity, their abilities and powers are fixed. Dragons aren't so much an exception to this as they are a twist on the "childhood to maturity" part, continually growing into more power over time. But that's really it.
Of course, the standard started breaking down almost immediately. The reasons for the class and level restrictions for non-humans weren't well understood (which was partially because those reasons weren't explicitly stated, and Gary's essay on page 21 of the DMG only addressed them obliquely, treating the game's humanocentricism as fait accompli), and even if they had been explained (i.e. by saying that it wasn't that every other race was incompetent, but that the demihuman gods were more skilled at creating mortal races, and that humans – who had no creator god – were some sort of anomaly that deities were interested in recruiting to their cause, hence why there were so many human pantheons), it doesn't seem likely that many people would have accepted that, since it brought forth a lot of presumptions that I'm guessing a great deal of players weren't necessarily on board with.

The result was that UA pushed level limits for AD&D 1E, and 2E began offering supplements that rolled back a lot of demihuman restrictions. Basic introduced new "attack ranks" for demihumans (in the Master Set, as I recall) by calculating accumulated XP beyond level limits, along with introducing new races-as-classes in supplements. And of course Dragon was replete with alternative rules (or so it seemed, at least).
A PC halfling has a Charisma score stat. A halfling in the monster sections does not. The 1e PH says that a PC dwarf cannot be a cleric, but an NPC one can.
With regard to monsters (and NPCs presented in the MM), it's clear that they did have the same ability scores as PCs; it's just that they weren't actually presented in their MM entries. For instance, the entry for giants notes that they have Strength scores of 19 to 25 ("as compared with humans"), and when standard gnolls are said to deal 2-8 points of damage, the fact that gnoll guards deal 3-9 and chieftans deal 4-10 suggests that (in addition to their other noted stat improvements) their Strength score is higher.

With regard to certain demihuman race/class combinations being permissible but restricted to NPCs only, that looks like a holdover from the notations in Supplement I: Greyhawk:

Among the dwarves themselves, but never as a player, there are clerical types. Dwarf clerics are found as high as 7th level (Lama), and they can cure and resurrect their own. These clerics are also fighters.

Among the elves there are clerical types as high as 6th level (Bishop) who interact only with their own kind. These clerics (fighter/magic-user/cleric types) have magical ability limited to the 6th level (Magician).

Which is to say, it looks like this is hard-coding in a cultural practice (explicitly so among the elves, but only implied for dwarves, i.e. that odd note about how they can cure and resurrect their own; the implication being that no one else can?) into the rules, something else I suspect that players chafed at.

With regard to the notation in the AD&D 1E DMG (page 100) that listed alternative ability score modifiers for non-human races, that's interesting because, taken in context with how there are also ability score modifiers presented for (some) classes that NPCs have, it seems to suggest a shift in presentation. Whereas before the Core Rulebooks presented the rules for PC races and classes as telling us how things worked from an in-character standpoint (i.e. simulationism), here the DMG looks to be giving GMs a shortcut for developing NPCs (still using randomly-generated ability scores, notice) that can serve as foils to the PCs (i.e. gamism); there's a reason why it even offers NPC-only "occupations" that further alter ability scores.

Of course, this served to widen the cognitive gap even more, which is why this also seemed to be something (along with things like the one-minute round) that was either overlooked or ignored by a lot of people (though the fact that most GMs didn't want to determine their NPCs' ability scores randomly certainly helped). It's no surprise that these alternative ability score modifiers vanished in 2E.
 

Zeromaru X

Arkhosian scholar and coffee lover
Tom is casting firebolt, Brad is throwing firesphere, Amy is praying for an emberarrow, and Mike is slinging a flamebullet. Pretending to be different but actually being the same just feels so much more hollow and inauthentic than just all doing the same thing.

So, are you saying that if Tom is using a torch, Brad a flashlight, Amy an oil lantern, and Mike is just relying in the light from is cellphone's screen, the resulting light it's "hollow and inauthentic"?
 

So, are you saying that if Tom is using a torch, Brad a flashlight, Amy an oil lantern, and Mike is just relying in the light from is cellphone's screen, the resulting light it's "hollow and inauthentic"?
Can you really not understand that context matters? You think this example is at all comparable?
 

Zeromaru X

Arkhosian scholar and coffee lover
Can you really not understand that context matters? You think this example is at all comparable?

That seems to be the problem of the original poster. Each of the power sources in 4e represented different kinds of energy and forces in the universe that you could use to do stuff. It's different to get a fireball by creating it using arcane power, than getting one by praying to the gods for it. Yeah, you may have got the same fireball in both actions, but how you got it also matters.

The difference is context (in this case, knowing the context of the game), and understanding that we can use different methods to achieve the same result (even here in the real world! So, it isn't something hard to imagine happening in fantasy...)
 

That seems to be the problem of the original poster. Each of the power sources in 4e represented different kinds of energy and forces in the universe that you could use to do stuff. It's different to get a fireball by creating it using arcane power, than getting one by praying to the gods for it. Yeah, you may have got the same fireball in both actions, but how you got it also matters.

The difference is context (in this case, knowing the context of the game), and understanding that we can use different methods to achieve the same result (even here in the real world! So, it isn't something hard to imagine happening in fantasy...)
The context is one describes a mechanical action core to the games fantasy. Your trash comparison (not a personal attack, sure you are a great person) doesnt capture the other influencing factors. For example, should we have 10 types of polearm when just 3 suffices? Instead of a longsword, do we need katana, falchion, and bastard sword? Do we need claymores and great swords and horse cutter swords? What about 10 types of shield.
 

Zeromaru X

Arkhosian scholar and coffee lover
For example, should we have 10 types of polearm when just 3 suffices? Instead of a longsword, do we need katana, falchion, and bastard sword? Do we need claymores and great swords and horse cutter swords? What about 10 types of shield.

1. This was a problem in other editions, not in 4e. 4e actually trimmed down a lot of redundant stuff, leaving just items needed for specific purposes.

2. I think that, if that stuff has a reason to be, sure, why not? A katana maybe just a longsword with another name, but it gives a certain impression: it's the weapon of not-Japan, as opposed to the longsword, that is the weapon of the not-Europa part of the world. They may have the same ruling mechanics, but tell a different story.

So, it really depends on what do you want to tell with something instead of letting that something tell the stuff for you.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
So, are you saying that if Tom is using a torch, Brad a flashlight, Amy an oil lantern, and Mike is just relying in the light from is cellphone's screen, the resulting light it's "hollow and inauthentic"?
If all of those provide the exact same effect, then the situation feels hollow and inauthentic, yes, because they shouldn't. Different cause, different effect.
 

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