D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Bull's Strength

[Kraedin]

'Gains the attacks of a fighter' sounds much more impressive than '+2 to hit'.

A +2 bonus to hit that stacks with every other effect in the entire game system, as well as an extra attack.

 

[Zogg]

As long as you're OK with clerics being better in all aspects of combat compared to fighters, I guess it's fine.

Actually fighters get more feats and HP - even with divine power a cleric won't have as many HP unless the fighter has low CON and has had horrendous HP rolls.

Oh yea. And fighters are proficient in all but exotic weapons. That's a big deal. And they get specialization. Clerics don't.

Oh yea. Fighters are expected to do nothing but fight, while clerics are EXPECTED to take a turn or two to cast spells, heal, turn undead, etc. during a battle.

So really, clerics w/divine power aren't "better in all aspects of combat compared to fighters". Now, if you want to argue that dual class clerics that take 4 levels of fighter are better than straight fighters, you might have yourself a solid argument there.

 

[hong]

It has a personal range, and Persistent Spell has not been weakened in any way with the revision.

Persistent Spell doesn't exist in the revision, just as it didn't exist in the original. If you choose to use optional material from a splatbook, that's your business.

 

[Numion]

The 8th level spell slot is more valuble than the magical item, so I would hope so.

At 15th level, you have 1 8th level spell and 200,000 gp. Which one would you rather expend to get a bonus to an abilty score?

I don't know what you mean, but Pearl of Power for 8th level spell is 64 kgp. Triple-empowered boost grants on the average a bonus of 9 to the ability. +8 item costs 640 kgp. Ask now the same question "which would you rather expend to get a bonus to an ability score".

But the reason I really like the change is that spellcasters now have to buy magic items too. Balances the classes need for magic items nicely.

 

[Numion]

IME, dispelling is something you encounter once in a blue moon. Heck, even when you're fighting other spellcasters, they'll typically have more than enough to worry about, without having to dispel stuff as well.

I play in a game with really heavy buffing, and I agree with you. The problem with dispelling is that the spellcaster can choose between trying to dispel one guy or trying to kill some / all characters. Because dispelling is about 50/50 (people tend to encounter casters of about similar levels) chance per spell it just isn't good enough compared to doing something really harmful.

At least my cleric has taken a dispel or two sometime, and while I don't like it, it doesn't affect my character much as far as combat ability goes.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

+8 statboost items are wonky because they come from the epic level rules. I'm still fine with the concept of a triple empowered statboost. It's something that can only be cast on the day of the adventure (unless you know about the adventure in advance) and it takes a spell slot that could have been devoted to something much more significant--like Mind Blank or Extended Elemental Immunity, etc.

And spellcasters always had to buy magic items since the statboost spells (as printed in Tome and Blood) all explicitly say that they don't grant bonus spell slots. So, spellcasters who wanted those bonus 5th-9th level spells needed to shell out the cash. IME, it was fighter-types who were the primary beneficiaries of the super-empowered buffs.

Originally posted by Numion I don't know what you mean, but Pearl of Power for 8th level spell is 64 kgp. Triple-empowered boost grants on the average a bonus of 9 to the ability. +8 item costs 640 kgp. Ask now the same question "which would you rather expend to get a bonus to an ability score".

But the reason I really like the change is that spellcasters now have to buy magic items too. Balances the classes need for magic items nicely.

The games I play in are also often buff-heavy and I've found that, as a PC going up against higher level spellcasters, dispels are often worthwhile. They're pretty effective for enemies too as my RttToEE cleric found out when she was targetted with a dispel magic. She lost Bull's Strength, Fly, Protection From Evil, Magic Vestment (IIRC) and bless and was dropped into the middle of a horde of zombies (fortunately they weren't bolstered and she was a cleric. . .) and then found herself (she's usually an archer) in melee with a buffed up troglodyte cleric.

There's also the possibility of chained dispel magics from enemies. A targetted dispel on everyone in the party and their dogs, weapons, armor, and rings too. If the party relies heavily on buffs, that's probably better than an empowered fireball. And a maximized dispel magic would get rid of the 50/50 thing and really strip off a party's defenses. Sure, those aren't straight up dispel magics but by the time the party is facing them (which is coincidentally when empowered extended buffs become really viable and double empowered buffs become conceivable) you shouldn't expect an unmodified 3rd level spell to be overly effective.

I play in a game with really heavy buffing, and I agree with you. The problem with dispelling is that the spellcaster can choose between trying to dispel one guy or trying to kill some / all characters. Because dispelling is about 50/50 (people tend to encounter casters of about similar levels) chance per spell it just isn't good enough compared to doing something really harmful.

At least my cleric has taken a dispel or two sometime, and while I don't like it, it doesn't affect my character much as far as combat ability goes.

 

[Numion]

+8 statboost items are wonky because they come from the epic level rules. I'm still fine with the concept of a triple empowered statboost. It's something that can only be cast on the day of the adventure (unless you know about the adventure in advance) and it takes a spell slot that could have been devoted to something much more significant--like Mind Blank or Extended Elemental Immunity, etc.

It's usually used by clerics to push their physical abilities to the next level. Coupled with polymorph they are pretty lethal. Thats not what bothers me - 8th level spells are supposed to be strong. What bothers me is that full spellcasters don't have to pay for ability boosting items. Maybe for the one that gives them extra slots, but not for physical stats. I've seen this in my games, and even with the cleric character I play. I've always got large amounts of cash since I save so much with these boosts.

And spellcasters always had to buy magic items since the statboost spells (as printed in Tome and Blood) all explicitly say that they don't grant bonus spell slots. So, spellcasters who wanted those bonus 5th-9th level spells needed to shell out the cash. IME, it was fighter-types who were the primary beneficiaries of the super-empowered buffs.

Never in my games. Clerics and wizzies tended to use those boosts themselves - fighters were stuck at +6 while clerics had +10 or even +12 to STR.

The games I play in are also often buff-heavy and I've found that, as a PC going up against higher level spellcasters, dispels are often worthwhile. They're pretty effective for enemies too as my RttToEE cleric found out when she was targetted with a dispel magic. She lost Bull's Strength, Fly, Protection From Evil, Magic Vestment (IIRC) and bless and was dropped into the middle of a horde of zombies (fortunately they weren't bolstered and she was a cleric. . .) and then found herself (she's usually an archer) in melee with a buffed up troglodyte cleric.

Of course they are sometimes useful. But at high levels when I'm DMing I've noticed that its more often than not more worthwhile to try to kill the PCs more directly.

And a maximized dispel magic would get rid of the 50/50 thing and really strip off a party's defenses. Sure, those aren't straight up dispel magics but by the time the party is facing them (which is coincidentally when empowered extended buffs become really viable and double empowered buffs become conceivable) you shouldn't expect an unmodified 3rd level spell to be overly effective.

Wrong. You can't maximize Dispel. It's a level check which isn't affected. If you could do that, Greater Dispelling would be a bit stupid, now wouldn't it?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Originally posted by Numion It's usually used by clerics to push their physical abilities to the next level. Coupled with polymorph they are pretty lethal. Thats not what bothers me - 8th level spells are supposed to be strong. What bothers me is that full spellcasters don't have to pay for ability boosting items. Maybe for the one that gives them extra slots, but not for physical stats. I've seen this in my games, and even with the cleric character I play. I've always got large amounts of cash since I save so much with these boosts.

This is pretty much exactly opposite to my instincts as a player. As a cleric, I wouldn't get Cat's Grace and if I did, I probably wouldn't be able to use the increased dexterity too much due to armor (well my archer cleric would have but not my melee cleric). And I don't think any of my characters would be comfortable relying on Endurance for con when they had the money for an item--endurance would make too much ride on not getting dispelled. They might choose strength buffs for the savings but even those start to get a little iffy.

Polymorph would be a separate problem altogether. (And it's not directly a cleric problem is it--after all, it's not on their list).

Never in my games. Clerics and wizzies tended to use those boosts themselves - fighters were stuck at +6 while clerics had +10 or even +12 to STR.

Hmmm. The cleric in my group was more than happy to start buffing the fighter as soon as he had a quality fighter in his group--he figured that if he got to be the healer instead of the one going up against the summoned Dire tigers, he'd be safer and happier.

Of course they are sometimes useful. But at high levels when I'm DMing I've noticed that its more often than not more worthwhile to try to kill the PCs more directly.

This seems to somewhat undercut your argument. If the buff spells make such a difference then dispelling would usually be a very good tactic and might even contribute to killing them directly. (In fact, against a cleric suspected to have even normal endurance running--let alone multiply empowered endurance spells--a Dispel Magic is likely to do at least as much effective damage as a fireball or ice storm in addition to its other debilitating effects).

Wrong. You can't maximize Dispel. It's a level check which isn't affected. If you could do that, Greater Dispelling would be a bit stupid, now wouldn't it?

Well there'd still be room for greater dispelling since it effects more things than Dispel Magic (Bestow Curse for instance) and can dispel a 20th level caster's spell (which Dispel Magic can't ever do) but you've got me there. Maximize does specifically prohibit dispel magic (so much for one of the few situations I could see it being better than empower which is also specifically prohibited from working on Dispels).

 

[Ravellion]

Kraedin said they made Divine Power stronger, but I fail to see why. For an experiment we'll use the new Bull's strength, or the old one which had rolled a 3+1=4

Let's say our 3.0 cleric has 14 STR? reasonable right? Now he cast Divine Power and Bull's strength: +8 STR total (starting with 12 STR: +10!)

Under the new situation, the cleric only gains +6 STR total - the Divine power. Under any and all situations, the bonus will never be more than +6.

I fail to see how that is so much better.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let's say our 3.0 cleric has 14 STR? reasonable right? Now he cast Divine Power and Bull's strength: +8 STR total (starting with 12 STR: +10!)

'fraid not... they both provide an Enhancement bonus, so even under 3.0 they don't stack.

-Hyp.