D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Bull's Strength

[splitinfinitude]

At level 15, you should have a headband of intellect +6. It costs 18000 gp and 1440 XP, or 9% of our wealth and 1% of our XP . . .

The issue isn't the resources it costs to replicate the spell, its the fact that the money could be spend elsewhere.

(IMO, btw, Fox's cunning is a bad example, it doesn't give bonus spells and is obviously inferior to the device.)

Compare +6 gloves of dexterity to emp, emp cat's grace. You can have the +6 gloves, or cast the spell, and have a ring of evasion, cloak of resistance +5, natural armor +4, a ring of wizardry (II) (roughly the same cost), or a lavendar ioun stone. Or a +6 device for a different stat.

That's the abuse, the gain in opportunity cost. You can ignore the stat-buff items, spend your cash on other stuff, and just cast the spells.

And with the 8th level slot, you can cast emp, emp, ext, ext for a 45 hour duration - you only cast every two days! So, you still get the 8th level spell every other day.

I don't much care for the 1 min/lvl duration, though. That's overcompensating.

 

[Quixon]

It's not the end of the world. It's just one spell. Divine Power is FAR better and pretty much makes bull's strength obsolete - as it should.

If the threads from the General boards are correct, Divine Power got changed, its a +6 enhancement bonus I believe. So no more getting 18 automatically anymore it would seem.

 

[Kraedin]

After looking through that thread, it was revealed that divine power GOT STRONGER IN THE REVISION! URGE... TO KILL... RISING!

 

[Zogg]

Kraedin, you need to take your anti-anxiety medication. Really.

On Divine Power (3E, as we haven't confirmed what the spell is in 3.5E):

1. Divine Power is a 4th level spell - and, let's face it, aside from 'searing light' and 'magic armor' the 3rd level cleric spells are pretty lame for combat. Ohh. Look. I can 'remove everything'. Allow the clerics some cool spells at 4th level already.

2. Divine power is really only appealing to clerics with LOW STR - for those with mid to high STR they should really be casting bull's strength - a 2nd level spell - instead of wasting a 4th level spell for nearly the same effect. As the cleric gets higher in level, divine power becomes a more appealing spell (as the disparity between cleric and fighter grows) but it makes sense

3. Have you seen a little spell called "Tenser's transformation"? Now, if you want to talk about ridiculous spells......the disparity between a wizard and fighter's BAB is just sick. For a cleric to become a fighter w/18 STR for a whopping 1 round/level isn't that big a deal. You need to chill.

 

[Kraedin]

Let's recap.

It gives you a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength.
It gives you the base attack bonus of a fighter of your level.
It gives you +1 hit point/level.

It has a personal range, and Persistent Spell has not been weakened in any way with the revision.

That doesn't seem at all abusive to you? Not even a little?

 

[Pickaxe]

I pretty much feel that they could've solved any perceived problems without changing the spell so drastically.

If the "all day" effect was the problem, they could just have cut the duration in half. At 30 min/lvl, even a 20th level caster extending the spell can't have it all day.

If it was the stacked empowers and extensions, why not change the rule about using the same metamagic feat on a spell multiple times?

My main problems with this change are 1) I'd like to see the stat buffs last long enough for multiple combats, and 2) there are few enough spells that really benefit from metamagic feats already, and now there are three fewer (at least). In order to expect a spell to last multiple encounters (without pushing it), a duration of 10 minutes/level is the minimum, IMHO. Extend Spell is therefore most useful for spells that are likely to run out during a combat (e.g., 1 round/level) or spells with durations on the order of hours. Durations of 1 minute/level effectively mean one encounter, whether they are extended or not. Many spells that can be empowered don't really benefit from it to a degree that justifies the cost. (There's no point in empowering cure light when you could just take cure serious, for instance.) The stat buffs were one of the few spells that scaled really well for these feats: they had long enough durations that still benefited from extension, and there were no spells like them at higher levels.

Another fix they could've used would be to add higher level stat buffs to the spell lists, say a 4th or 5th level spell that gives +6.

--Axe

 

[aliensex]

The buff spells may be weaker in duration, but they have been added to the spell lists of classes that didn't have them before. For example, the Paladin and Ranger have Bull's Strenght added to their spell list as well.

This is possibly because the duration was shortened.

 

[Zogg]

Let's recap.

It gives you a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength.
It gives you the base attack bonus of a fighter of your level.
It gives you +1 hit point/level.

It has a personal range, and Persistent Spell has not been weakened in any way with the revision.

That doesn't seem at all abusive to you? Not even a little?

Let's put it this way, Divine Power is a natural upgrade for a cleric that would normally cast both "bull's strength" and "aid". Both are 2nd level spells, and since we all know 2+2=4, and 4th level spells are supposed to be better than 2nd level spells, I don't see any problem or "abuse". Divine power doesn't last as long as bull's strength, but it scales as the cleric gains more levels which many 4th level spells do.

 

[Kraedin]

As long as you're OK with clerics being better in all aspects of combat compared to fighters, I guess it's fine.

 

[maddman75]

ALso remember that we haven't seen the final form! Its very possible that the buff spells could be cast at range, allowing the buff mage to cast his spells on his allies in the middle of combat when they need it most.

As far as divine power, I don't really have a problem with it. The +6 takes care of the major abuse, which is the 8 Str cleric (who point buys his way into higher stats elsewhere) then relies on Divine Power to help him in combat. And it was wonky otherwise, because it wasn't all that attractive to a Str 16 cleric. And at 7th level when the cleric first gets this the plus to his isn't all that great. 'Gains the attacks of a fighter' sounds much more impressive than '+2 to hit'.

Banning persistant spell takes care of so many problems.