D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[EzekielRaiden]

Almost the entirety of all hit points are strictly nonphysical. It is actually the absence of hit points - 0 hp - that becomes physical.

And even that physicality is not so strictly bound as some want it to be. Someone can recover from shock (which is usually what actually kills people in a number of violent-injury situations), or at least hold at bay the dangers of shock, due to external stimuli--like someone shouting at you. A rush of hormones, a delayed stress-response or (more likely) stress-relief response, a conscious effort to stay focused on breathing...these things can LITERALLY save lives, because the injuries can be more reparable than the breakdown of circulatory function.

All this to say: it isn't actually unphysical to 'heal' someone by shouting at them. It sure as hell isn't something one can easily control, but that's already true of half or more of the amazing things D&D characters do on a daily basis that don't have a lick of magic in them at all. Motivation alone literally can keep someone going long enough for "real" medical treatment (as though treating shock were somehow virtual medical treatment?) to arrive.

The Warlord is a powerful healer, a healer of the soul, galvanizing resolve, energy, determination, alertness, responsiveness, hope, and ingeniously and reliably discovering a way forward.

None of this is magic.

Normal humans do this every day.

"Perhaps it is magic: the magic of the human heart, focused and made manifest by technology. Every day, you here create greater miracles than the burning bush."
"Maybe. But God was there first, and He didn't need solar batteries and a fusion reactor to do it."
"Perhaps; perhaps not. It is within that ambiguity that my brothers and I exist. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner. Holographic demons and invocations of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know...many things."
"Such as...?"
"The true secrets. The important things. Fourteen words to make someone fall in love with you forever. Seven words to make them go without pain. How to say goodbye to a friend who is dying. How to be poor. How to be rich. How to...rediscover dreams when the world has stolen them from you. That is why we are going away, to preserve that knowledge."

I cannot overstate how much Babylon 5 shaped my understanding of fiction, both science and fantasy. Possibly the only thing that can equal it is Myst, and in particular, not the game (which was good, but not that impactful), but the novel, Myst: The Book of Atrus.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think the biggest trouble with 'non-magical healing' being more widely accepted, is that it requires acceptance that hit points aren't physical damage.

I mean, they never were. That much goes all the way back to Gygax.

Meat points have always been a projection onto a system that wasn't designed to represent them and doesn't usefully map to them. But the feeling of meat points is, as with many things in the D&D design discussion space, a siren song that many are not willing to give up. They would rather have a game that is unpleasant to play but has meat points, because the aesthetic value of meat points is apparently more important than a game that is actually enjoyable to play.

 

[GrimCo]

Tbh best monk i played was pf1 unchained monk. D10, full bab, unarmed damage starting with d6 and going to d8 and d10, then it just doubles for lv 11-12 with 2d6 2d8 2d10.

5e monk is underwhelming, specially in tier1 and 2 where most games are played. Too few ki points. Weak defense. Serious MAD ( dex/wis/con). They are ment as your quick hit and run fighters. But if you want to hit and run without enemy hiting back, you need to spend ki and you cant use flurry (which also uses ki, but it also uses bonus action). Rogue is better highly mobile hit and run class since he can do his big hit ( sneak attack) and run (cunning action) without resource expenditure. Oh, and unarmed damage scailing sucks. It should start with d6 and go to at least 2d6.

 

[Minigiant]

I mean, they never were. That much goes all the way back to Gygax.

Meat points have always been a projection onto a system that wasn't designed to represent them and doesn't usefully map to them. But the feeling of meat points is, as with many things in the D&D design discussion space, a siren song that many are not willing to give up. They would rather have a game that is unpleasant to play but has meat points, because the aesthetic value of meat points is apparently more important than a game that is actually enjoyable to play.

Meat points is a thing because for big monsters like giants and dragons, it is meat points. Those big things don't dodge.

The trouble is people try to apply the same logic to Humaniods. But people forget Humaniods are small enough to dodge and party swords and axes and have defences based on stamina and morale.

 

[ECMO3]

5e monk is underwhelming, specially in tier1 and 2 where most games are played. Too few ki points. Weak defense. Serious MAD ( dex/wis/con). They are ment as your quick hit and run fighters. But if you want to hit and run without enemy hiting back, you need to spend ki and you cant use flurry (which also uses ki, but it also uses bonus action). Rogue is better highly mobile hit and run class since he can do his big hit ( sneak attack) and run (cunning action) without resource expenditure. Oh, and unarmed damage scailing sucks. It should start with d6 and go to at least 2d6.

I would argue it is tier 2 only where they are weak. At levels 1-4 they are getting a base 2 attacks a turn using a bonus action which most classes aren't. A Fighter or Ranger with Two Weapon Fighting Style can beat this, but those characters fall off fast in tier 2 as well (unless they change fighting style at level 4)

 

[Mephista]

Oh I see what you mean. I think it's fine for it to not be good all the time, as long as there's no opportunity cost to have it available. If we're talking the Commander Strike's Maneuver on the Battlemaster, you really need to know your party before you actually pick it, but if it's like... one of 3 or so ability all Warlords get by default and they're all useful in different ways? Why does it matter if you never use this particular one, ya know? Spells aren't useful in all circumstances, doesn't make them bad.

Someone asked why people had issues with this ability. I answered - many find Commander Strike unsatisfying and unreliable. You might be okay with it, and more power to ya, but it is a wider concern for many.

Its likee Ranger's Favored Enemy and Terrain. Relying on outside factors is generally unpopular.

It matters because its iconic. Its to Warlord as EB and smites are to warlock and paladin.

Speells are usually swappable. Martial abilities usually aren't. That modularity is what makes it okay for speells to be more niche but less so martial ability.

 

[Mephista]

For all those who are claiming that PC hit points aren't meat -

There are multiple poisons in this game that work on the assumption it is getting into your bloodstream, as it activates on a hit. Which means that HP is in, at least part, meat. You're bleeding.

Its not the only mechanic that assumes some kind of injury on a hit.

HP might be other stuff too, but at least one part is meat.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I actually thought the warlord was a good concept, though i think the mechanics could have been better. The scream heal bugged me, but I think they could rework the kinks out and fit the class in the game no problem

 

[EzekielRaiden]

For all those who are claiming that PC hit points aren't meat -

There are multiple poisons in this game that work on the assumption it is getting into your bloodstream, as it activates on a hit. Which means that HP is in, at least part, meat. You're bleeding.

Its not the only mechanic that assumes some kind of injury on a hit.

HP might be other stuff too, but at least one part is meat.

Name a poison that causes debilitating injury in <6 seconds and then doesn't have any further complications whatsoever--not six seconds later, not six minutes later, not six hours later, six days, nothing.

I'll wait.

Edit:
And, more importantly, I did not say they could not ever even potentially contain the tiniest amount of meat.

The folks claiming they are meat 99.99% of the time, though? They are arguing that HP are 100% always, exclusively meat. That it's not possible for hit points to be ANYTHING but meat.

 

[James Gasik]

And even that physicality is not so strictly bound as some want it to be. Someone can recover from shock (which is usually what actually kills people in a number of violent-injury situations), or at least hold at bay the dangers of shock, due to external stimuli--like someone shouting at you. A rush of hormones, a delayed stress-response or (more likely) stress-relief response, a conscious effort to stay focused on breathing...these things can LITERALLY save lives, because the injuries can be more reparable than the breakdown of circulatory function.

All this to say: it isn't actually unphysical to 'heal' someone by shouting at them. It sure as hell isn't something one can easily control, but that's already true of half or more of the amazing things D&D characters do on a daily basis that don't have a lick of magic in them at all. Motivation alone literally can keep someone going long enough for "real" medical treatment (as though treating shock were somehow virtual medical treatment?) to arrive.


"Perhaps it is magic: the magic of the human heart, focused and made manifest by technology. Every day, you here create greater miracles than the burning bush."
"Maybe. But God was there first, and He didn't need solar batteries and a fusion reactor to do it."
"Perhaps; perhaps not. It is within that ambiguity that my brothers and I exist. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner. Holographic demons and invocations of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know...many things."
"Such as...?"
"The true secrets. The important things. Fourteen words to make someone fall in love with you forever. Seven words to make them go without pain. How to say goodbye to a friend who is dying. How to be poor. How to be rich. How to...rediscover dreams when the world has stolen them from you. That is why we are going away, to preserve that knowledge."

I cannot overstate how much Babylon 5 shaped my understanding of fiction, both science and fantasy. Possibly the only thing that can equal it is Myst, and in particular, not the game (which was good, but not that impactful), but the novel, Myst: The Book of Atrus.

Love me some Bab 5 dialogue, and Elric had some great lines.