D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[Remathilis]

Why would you assume it wouldn't have downside? We could easily add them in a way that fits the theme. The Warlord gives someone the benefits of Haste? Well then they get Exhaustion right after the duration and the duration could be shorter too. Frenzy is basically a low level version of haste and people don't even use it.

Because nobody ever mentions them. They say "it's like magic, but it's nonmagical" and when pressed it never goes farther than that. I'd like to hear more about how that gets balanced besides Martial Christmastree land thinking. @EzekielRaiden at least provided some thoughts on balancing them. Most of the time, it's just all the power, none of the (scant) drawbacks.

 

[CleverNickName]

Because nobody ever mentions them. They say "it's like magic, but it's nonmagical" and when pressed it never goes farther than that.

Not for lack of trying, though. As you said, the topic usually hits a wall when folks try to describe what healing looks like. But why?

I think the biggest trouble with 'non-magical healing' being more widely accepted, is that it requires acceptance that hit points aren't physical damage. For your character to recover hit points from an inspirational speech, after losing them to a volley of arrows, requires you to accept that those arrows didn't physically wound your character, or didn't wound them in a way that was debilitating, or etc.

Some folks are quite resolute about this topic, on both sides, and they will. not. budge. from their position. Whether you believe hit points are abstract and can be recovered with psychology and bedrest, or you believe hit points are physical and can be healed with magic and miracles, you're probably not interested in changing your mind about it. And the two ideas are so different, so incompatible with each other, that it's difficult to have them both in the same game.

 

[Mephista]

You're a legendary person, why WOULDN'T the celestial hosts sign up to fight at your side?

Honestly? The main reason I'd be against this is because its effectively taking control of an NPC. Which is the domain of the DM, mind-control abilities, or an attempt to codify Titles into a class. I know you're trying to suggest they're willing signing up, and showing up under their own power, but this is the kind of thing that treads outside the assumed control of a player - Players determine their Characters thoughts, feeligns and actions, and the DM does the same for every NPC. There's no mind control involved, and being granted a Title assumes that there's people willingly on board with your orders.

And codifying titles in to a class is just as doable as coding magic items or blessings. We have the artificer and cleric, its been done, so we should be able to do titles. The question, however, is if its desirable, because it assumes things about NPC and the world around. How are you going to exercise a title when the game is set in the Underdark and no one is around to see your acheivements and reward the title? Those are some questions I think need to be addressed first.

 

[Undrave]

Because nobody ever mentions them. They say "it's like magic, but it's nonmagical" and when pressed it never goes farther than that. I'd like to hear more about how that gets balanced besides Martial Christmastree land thinking. @EzekielRaiden at least provided some thoughts on balancing them. Most of the time, it's just all the power, none of the (scant) drawbacks.

Okay then, I wasn't following your conversations.

For what it's worth, we shouldn't NEED Antimagic zones or counter spells, magic just shouldn't be that problematic.

 

[Mephista]

How is that not an extra cost? It's basically a maintenance cost for the ability imposed on the person granting the ability.

When people suggest risking your life by sacrificing HP, its usually because there is the assumption that the sacrifice involves risking the battle turning against you. That's not what actually happens.

This is just making the ability cost more... superiority dice, or whatever is used. A higer level slot. At that point, you're just saying "this ability costs double" with extra steps.

Its a cost, just not the cost that you're suggesting. The vibe ends up very different, and vibes are very important in this kind of endeavor.

That's why the Monk sucks.

No, the Monk sucked (past tense!) because the time, effort, and feedback was never put into the class. The 1dnd Monk is AWESOME.

 

[James Gasik]

tell ya what. Homebrew a warlord that doesn’t do any attack granting or even just not as much attack granting as warlord fans want and see how well that goes. I promise ya I’ve seen it attempted enough. It’s not going to go well.

Do you mean, it couldn't work, or that people would reject it?

I ran a game for a 4e Warlord who never granted a single attack (this was for Living Forgotten Realms) and he could never be sure if there was someone worth granting a basic attack to and he didn't lack for effectiveness.

 

[Undrave]

No, the Monk sucked (past tense!) because the time, effort, and feedback was never put into the class. The 1dnd Monk is AWESOME.

The 5e Monk sucks because it's not a proper translation, it's just a bunch of features that past monks had piled onto a 5e class with no real thought put into how 5e works or how they synergize together.

 

[Minigiant]

Because nobody ever mentions them. They say "it's like magic, but it's nonmagical" and when pressed it never goes farther than that. I'd like to hear more about how that gets balanced besides Martial Christmastree land thinking. @EzekielRaiden at least provided some thoughts on balancing them. Most of the time, it's just all the power, none of the (scant) drawbacks.

The main Weakness of Warlords is they aren't ass good warriors as primary warriors and their buffs are grounded.

They can only make you do things you could already. Just more reliably at maximum efficiency.

 

[James Gasik]

A people don't like list? No, no, its a to-do checklist!

Joking aside... That's not a real drawback, considering the guy creating the HP loss is also the guy burning resources to keep you from dying from the HP loss. It basically translates to "spend more resource to power this one ability." And, considering we're talking about short-rest-recharge powers, this effectively means no cost outside of a dungeon, where there's often long periods of time between encounters. Or, if we went with the gamble power thingy, it'd mean it was actively granting you more power to do things rather than a cost.


People have done the "powered by HP" thing before, across multiple editions and different D&D clones, and it pretty consistently ends up as just putting a bit more of a burden on the healer's resources instead of an active threat to one's life. Or could require more HD to heal it during a rest, but that's same idea.

Or worse, you have to bend over backwards to prevent magical healing from busting things. Ala the Pathfinder 1e Kineticist.

 

[Undrave]

This is just making the ability cost more... superiority dice, or whatever is used. A higer level slot. At that point, you're just saying "this ability costs double" with extra steps.

Its a cost, just not the cost that you're suggesting. The vibe ends up very different, and vibes are very important in this kind of endeavor.

Having a different vibe from just a higher level spell seems like a good thing? You WANT a different vibe between martial maneuvers and spells. Maybe it's not the right vibe but it's just a starting point. Maybe play up the maintenance cost aspect of martial exploits by requiring specific actions?

Like, you could have a martial exploit that lets you grant your allies some sort of bonus against a target so long as you keep attacking them each turn and it stops working if you can't attack. Or heck, it stops if you MISS. That would be a different vibe from a spell. Another could ask that you always end your turn next to the ally you're buffing?