Level Up (A5E) Why is non-magical flying so limited for PCs?

noodohs

Explorer
I didn't criticize you for punishing anyone. I criticized you for making a dismissive post which sort of answered one of three valid issues and handwaved the rest.

And my response to planars existing is... "What's a planar?"

A Planetar is a Large Angel and so could swoop down and pick up a medium sized unwilling creature to drop them from 500ft. Is that what you meant?

Or do you mean Tieflings and Aasimar or other Planetouched Heritages? 'Cause those don't get Wings as a heritage trait or even gift, currently, and so it's really not applicable.
Yes, I meant planetar. It was late, my bad. I get very frustrated with the anti-PC flight people because the restrictions they want to impose are so punishing as to make me not even want to bother, which just feels like... why? Have you actually let players just have flight without those restrictions to see if anything actually breaks? My other problem is when the PC flight options come from heritages that have been adopted from monster stat blocks, but at least for o5e, the playable version has been heavily nerfed, which is just so stupid. If you have to nerf it (or otherwise alter its basic physiology) to make it playable, then it just shouldn't be playable. I don't know if A5e has this problem as much, but it definitely has a notable lack of good flight options and the Homebrew and Hacking supplement places way, way too much weight on player flight when creating a heritage.

Instead of placing obnoxious restrictions on player flight because 5% of players might possibly abuse it, I think it would be better if it was just allowed, but with a section in Trials & Treasures dedicated to advice on dealing with it. Things like:
  • 8 ft ceilings for indoor spaces. This isn't even restrictive, this is just how 99% of ceilings are, with the exceptions primarily being mansions, seats of power, and places of worship. This isn't a perfect solution, you can still fly over pitfall traps, but it does remove any combat benefit to flight as you'd always be within melee reach. Glyphs of warding also exist and if you treat them like a proximity mine (which you can), flying creatures can still trigger them.
  • If you're worried about players just flying over walls, don't forget to place guards to protect those walls (the walls are there to protect something, right?). In a world where flying creatures are a known concern, it's reasonable for them to have bows, nets, or to have spellcasters.
  • Remember to also let players have fun and sometimes put things down that you know they can just bypass so they feel good about their choices. You can also use this to your advantage so they become overconfident if you feel like sneaking something on them later.
  • Think about the type of game you are playing. In a roleplay-heavy game like I typically play, there are so few opportunities for flight to even be relevant let alone break anything. On the flip side, if you're running gritty realism, then yeah, maybe flight doesn't make sense at all.
  • Certainly when designing flying heritages, think about wingspan. I had an aasimar paladin who later became part angel and got real wings, but in order to carry not just his size but also his weight, those wings were like 20 feet. They simply weren't practical anywhere but outdoors and they required custom armor, clothing, etc. Magical flight... breaks a lot of these and probably just shouldn't be a thing for PCs, but maybe that's just me.
I understand (believe me I do) that having written rules for things helps at tables where certain players are prone to exploiting rules and so just having suggestions like this doesn't always work, but it also feels like the percentage of people who would actually do that is so very, very small and we're still designing around them. Drags everyone else down.

Back to the OP's original point, I know that in at least one case, the restrictions placed on flight were just for realism. Most real flying creatures can't hover for long, if at all, so placing restrictions on how long they can hover makes sense. Similarly, limiting how heavy of armor they can wear makes sense not just in terms of weight (though weight is already covered by strength score) but also mobility. So there are some good reasons to restrict flight.
 

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Rebel Mage

Villager
Have you actually let players just have flight without those restrictions to see if anything actually breaks?
I ran a game back in D&D5E with an aarakocra PC. I realised that at-will flight could easily work around a lot of things (like being chased by guards, could just run away), and working around all that just wasn't fun. With every scene or puzzle you create, you have to take another dimension into account. And, yes, that's the case for most abilities, but at-will flight feels "stronger" than most other things to me in what I'd have to alter and what obstacles I wouldn't be able to use.

Would I be able to work around it? Yes. Do I want to? No. I'd rather focus on other things.

(Also, if someone were to have at-will flight, or if they'd be flying a lot for other reasons, I'd probably want to use 3D Canvas because using a third dimension on a 2D battlemap is just... very inconvenient. And then I wouldn't be able to use a lot of the pretty maps I already have and I'd need to learn new skills, and it's also harder to find/edit good 3D tokens than it is to find/edit 2D tokens...)
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Like I said, there are many reasons that it's not a problem- but those are the easy answers on why it is.

But if one character has flight in a party, I can be sure that as far as bypassing challenges the flyer is going to be ferrying their party members all over. That's where having more actual rules for it would be useful, like those that @Steampunkette provided. But we don't have those.. as far as we can tell, it's no problem at all for a character to be lifting and carrying party members over obstacles; at least, in non-combat situations.
And as I said, if the flyer is carrying party members over obstacles, they don't get XP for them and they miss out on any boons they might have found by going through them. I do milestone/story-based leveling, but even then I would say that if you choose to go around the challenges, then your next level is going to be pushed back that much further. Remind them of this when they encounter the challenge or combat, before they choose to go around it.

Or, as I also said, simply create new challenges specifically for flying creatures. Go up too high and there will be powerful blasts of winds they have to fight through, and there's already weather-based challenges. There are plenty of flying monsters, and you can always make more. How about carnivorous clouds? Reskin an ooze, push it up a couple of sizes, and give it a fly speed.

This isn't targeting flying PCs any more than having ground-based challenges and monsters is targeting walking PCs.

Or, as @Micah Sweet said, simply create those rules.

Weight or size limitations make total sense. In the real world, most birds of prey seem to be able to carry between a third and a half of their weight, although I can't find out for how long (as with most things in real life, it can't be boiled down to a simple formula). While some birds can carry more, at least for short periods of time, there's that whole square/cube law that means a 180-pound dragonborn isn't going to be able to carry the same amount as a 20-pound eagle. So it makes a lot of sense to say that flying PCs can't carry a PC that's more than one size smaller then they are, they can't fly while wearing heavy armor, they can't fly while carrying bulky items, etc.

Need another justification? In nearly every case, flying is a gift--it's not an inborn part of the heritage. That means that the heritage doesn't naturally have the muscle power and specialized lungs and cardiovascular system needed to support flying.

Limit flying speeds. I haven't looked at the speeds of all the heritages with flying ability recently, but it makes perfect sense to say that for a Medium heritage, they can't go faster than 30 feet, and for a Small heritage, they can't go faster than 40 feet.

There's also flight ceilings. The Dreamborn from GPG have that limit built into their flying gift--they can't fly more than 10 feet off the ground. They use faerie magic to fly, so you can say that raw wing-power allows for a greater ceiling, but even then you can easily limit PCs to 60 or 100 feet. That's well within the range of most missile weapons and even within the range of some thrown weapons. A large percentage of humanoid foes already carry these weapons, and if they don't, just give some of them a bow. If the PCs are encountering humanoid foes in a random encounter sort of way, then those foes are out hunting, patrolling, or on their way to do Bad Guy stuff, so carrying a bow makes sense.

If the PC wants to go past these limitations--carrying more, flying higher or faster--then bring in the Sprint rules. For every round they push themselves, they have to make a Con save of increasing difficulty, or take fatigue. Only this fatigue requires a short rest to recover, not a minute (I feel that Sprint should be changed this way as well, but that's another thing).

You want to bring some extra realism in? Flying is hungry work. "Eat like a bird" actually means eating a lot. You fly for more than a minute between rests, or you push your limitations as above, you're going to need to eat two Supply.
 


James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Again though, you can pull off "being invincible to melee" with a high speed and some way to avoid attacks of opportunity (Monks, Rogues, the Mobile Feat). So while there can be other reasons to dislike flight, that isn't exactly unique to the ability.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I honestly don't see any of those as issues. Most traps are in dungeons, dungeons have low ceilings, can't fly if the ceilings are low. Or add a trip wire trap overhead so if someone tries to fly/jump over it, they get a net. The solutions to these "problems" are so simple I really do not understand why people think flight is such a problem. As I said, if it was really so strong, our PC with flight wouldn't have been the first death. It's a minor boon at best.
Sure it’s easy to nerf flyers. Nobody’s claiming it isn’t.

But if you’re constantly enacting easy solutions to nerf flyers, why bother having flyers?

A player whose abilities are constantly being here’s is not a happy player. The picked a flying heritage because they wanted to fly.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Sure it’s easy to nerf flyers. Nobody’s claiming it isn’t.

But if you’re constantly enacting easy solutions to nerf flyers, why bother having flyers?

A player whose abilities are constantly being here’s is not a happy player. The picked a flying heritage because they wanted to fly.
Well, then you start to move into the thorny issue of narrative intent vs. Practical gameplay. I'm happy to err on the side of verisimilitude over gameplay if a choice needs to be made, but a lot of folks, even here, seem to prefer the other way.
 

noodohs

Explorer
Sure it’s easy to nerf flyers. Nobody’s claiming it isn’t.

But if you’re constantly enacting easy solutions to nerf flyers, why bother having flyers?

A player whose abilities are constantly being here’s is not a happy player. The picked a flying heritage because they wanted to fly.
That has been my point all along, just let people fly if they want to and if you as a GM have some reservations, I also provided some suggestions for ways to deal with them. I do not think flight should be nerfed, quite the opposite. It's already nerfed and should be un-nerfed.
 

Stalker0

Legend
And who says they're "invincible"? Assuming such is a big reason why fear of PC flight persists.
Because unless a DM forces in flying and/or ranged attacks into every combat, the second one starts with just melee monsters (which is a good portion of the MM, and includes a lot of animals and things that many DMs would consider standard fare in outdoor encounters), then the flying PC is invincible.
 

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