D&D General When to know a rule?

[Hussar]

In arguably the best or 2nd best Mystaran gazetteer, The Principalities of Glantri, the secret of the Radiance as well as the Seven Secret Crafts (think specialist arcane schools) exist and are not known by the common man (or the player at character creation)
In the gazetteer, Minrothad Guilds, the Merchant Princes who are at the pinnacle of the caste system within that land, are masters of the sea and sail have their very own spell list (players would not have access to this spell list as the primary goal of that setting is rising through the ranks of the caste and guilds and attaining that title of Merchant Prince)

I could go on....

@EzekielRaiden and @Hussar - to address your questions to me as to how I would deploy/inform my players re alternate magic:
If the chraracters say where to start off in Karameikos, a knightly kingdom, and they were wizards they would know

• That the PHB spells are the commonly traded spells (at least the low level ones), magical formulas and rituals that have been revealed;
• Of the magocracies of Glantri and the Empire of Alphatia and of the powerful Merchant Princes that exist in the Minrothad Guilds and may have heard of the powerful druidic powers of the elves of the Alfheim forest...etc;
• That the wizards of those magocracies are have alternate spells or variation of certain spells due to their specialisation of that craft within the land;
• That generally wizards everywhere do not share their spell variations easily and if they do its likely at a premium;
• That all of this magic is available to the characters through the fiction; AND
• That the DM may have all the spells or may create more spells during the campaign as the story and location dictate.

Spell creation rules exist within the world of Mystara for players, with collaborative discussion with the DM.

If all of these secret arcane schools/spells happen within a published line of D&D, why is it so foreign for a DM to do this for their own table. Why the pushback?


Different Immortals, different Spheres (domains).
The priests of the Atruaghin Clans may have different powers than clerics within Karameikos.

All very interesting.

Not sure how it applies to a 5th Edition DnD discussion. But sure?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This sounds like "throw me a bone and I will be happy".

Because it is.

How does knowing one vague random bit about a spell make the game better?

Because it is evidence that the DM actually respects me and wishes to include me, rather than simply pronouncing from on high.

I just don't get how you are making the jump?

Because, for the umpteenth time, in the example given the DM has already told the players this thing exists. Spell, armor, weapon, whatever--the DM has already told the players in no uncertain terms that the thing exists. How could the players be asking for information about the new dwarven armor if they've never been told that there is any new dwarven armor?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

And how many living creatures do you and your companions end up killing, again?

When my characters can call the shots (or at least carry great sway)? No innocents and as few as possible of the guilty. Baiting others into attacking when they would not otherwise have done so is right out, for example. But taking on a quest to eliminate bandits who have waylaid or even murdered travellers and otherwise harmed the countryside? That's bringing merited punishment for wrongs done.

And my characters still show remorse, even for slaying the guilty in situations when there was no other acceptable option. Because it is always a tragedy to take a sapient life. Even killing in defense of another is a terrible thing.

We strive to build a world where you can have Batman, not because a child was reforged by tragedy into a weapon against evil, but because someone set so good an example that even an ordinary person would choose to be Batman, knowing how important it is to set that example for others.

 

[GrimCo]

All very interesting.

Not sure how it applies to a 5th Edition DnD discussion. But sure?

Just to be precise. Neither the topic tag, nor the opening post, states that he is talking about 5e. Topic is edition agnostic.

 

[Hussar]

Just to be precise. Neither the topic tag, nor the opening post, states that he is talking about 5e. Topic is edition agnostic.

The OP is 5e - talks about downtime activities after all.

But, again, just to be clear here, because there's a lot of drift going on, my issue here is that the DM has this massive tome of spells, refuses to allow the players access to it, even after they encounter the spell in game. The only way they can see the actual spell is to find it as treasure.

Which, frankly, is where I find the problem lies. Spells are player facing rules in 5e. If you want to specify different editions, then sure. I can't contradict you because I don't play those editions. But, then pointing to how things are done in different editions to me when I've repeated, over and over, that I am talking about 5e, isn't really helpful either.

I mean, spells are handled entirely differently in every game. Ars Magica and Savage Worlds and GURPS all handle spells differently too. How wide a net are we casting here? The OP is talking about 5th Edition D&D, I have repeatedly specified that I'm talking about 5th Edition D&D, so, why are you quoting different editions at me?

 

[ezo]

Which includes the player characters, as they are often the largest threats to all life everywhere.

Yep, they are retired... permanently.

 

[GrimCo]

The OP is 5e - talks about downtime activities after all.

But he never states it's 5e. Downtime activities aren't exclusive to 5e. To be fair, i also asumed he plays 5e, but this topic is more framed like general discussion agnostic to edition.

But, again, just to be clear here, because there's a lot of drift going on, my issue here is that the DM has this massive tome of spells, refuses to allow the players access to it, even after they encounter the spell in game. The only way they can see the actual spell is to find it as treasure.

TBH, stuff like that is for session 0. Setting expectations. At lest, that's how most DMs i know, myself included, handle it. Tell people up front that you are gonna use some homebrew stuff as potential adventuring hooks and rewards and only way for players to get them is trough gameplay. If players are ok with it, no problem. If dm wants fog of war on mechanics of spells, items etc but players want to see them up front or when they passivley encounter them, they are at odds and probably have missaligned play styles.

Which, frankly, is where I find the problem lies. Spells are player facing rules in 5e. If you want to specify different editions, then sure. I can't contradict you because I don't play those editions. But, then pointing to how things are done in different editions to me when I've repeated, over and over, that I am talking about 5e, isn't really helpful

Spellcasting is player facing rules. If dm houserules how spellcasting works, that needs to be told to players at session 0. Spells per se are not rules, they are optional character abilities ( as in you pick and choose spells for your character). If you remove magic missile, you just removed one option. You didn't remove rule.

I mean, spells are handled entirely differently in every game. Ars Magica and Savage Worlds and GURPS all handle spells differently too. How wide a net are we casting here? The OP is talking about 5th Edition D&D, I have repeatedly specified that I'm talking about 5th Edition D&D, so, why are you quoting different editions at me?

Again, cause this is general, edition agnostic, system specific ( d&d) discussion on how to handle dm- player situation. Which in the end boils down to playstyle. Some players ( fe me) would be totally ok if they encounter new spell by being on the receiving end of it, but not knowing full spell description until they invest in game effort to track down somone who knows that spell. Some players are not ok with it and they would like see spell text block. Different people, different preferences.

 

[James Gasik]

Again, none of that is true in 5e DnD though. I’m not talking about my, your or anyone else’s game. I’m talking about what the game says.

And the game precludes clerics from researching spells. In fact, afaik, no edition of the game had rules for cleric spell research. Wizard? Yup. 2e had some pretty cool spell research rules.

But in 5e, there aren’t spells like that. If a spell is divine, any cleric can have it.

Here's a direct quote from Chapter 7 of the 2e DMG:

 

[James Gasik]

Also, while we're on the subject of how players get access to new spells, Xanathar's has this to say:

 

[ezo]

This is what we use for spell research currently (@DND_Reborn came up with it). Since our games rarely get much past level 12 it seems to be working ok. We use it for researching spells already in 5E, but also for designing custom spells.

We also expanded it to the other classes, using things like pilgrimages, prayer, and donations for divine, money and time spent on natural conservation for primal, and so forth; using Religion and Nature instead of Arcana in such cases.