D&D General When to know a rule?

[bloodtide]

So, I my game I add lots of spells beyond what is in the couple of adventure books. Roughly 5,000 spells and counting. When I have an orc ice sorcerer, I want them to have a good selection of ice and cold spells....not just the couple that are in the rulebooks. I like each 'area' to have it's own magic traditions. If find it dull for the evil drown mage seven miles deep in the Underdark casts.....fireball. He instead has Acid Strike. And I do love bizarre spells beyond anything published in most offical books.

So.....enter a small handful of players. They say that they should know all the "rules" before we start playing the game. They note they know all the published spells. So they say if the DM adds spells to the game, they should get the full spell write ups before the game. The players must have all the game rules.

I'm not so sure we count things like spells, magic items, monsters, equipment, and other such things in the game...as "rules"?

I'm quick to point out that a huge part of the players not knowing every single detail of the game is part of the fun. And very begrudgingly this handful of players will accept that....but only to a point. They are fine with one single encounter where I use a spell unknown to them....but they demand to be given the full spell write up as soon as their characters encounter it. I say that defeats the whole point. The players don't know about a spell for a single encounter, then just "remember" and become experts on the spell?

I don't think that seeing one goblin cast Goblin Glue once should take away all the unknown mystery fun of a spell. The handful of players are quick to say that "they the players" just want to know the rules....."the spell". And they agree to act out and pretend their character does not. I'm not a fan of this at all....very few players ever do this....most do the soft exploit of "oh my character does not know what the spell description says, but will just randomly guess the exact right thing...".

My houserules are Spells are Treasure. So if a character finds a copy of a spell written out, and if they can read it, then the player gets a copy of the spell. Though the big way characters learn a spell is a downtime activity. The character needs to be in a small city at least, that has some magical tradition or a library or magic school or a magic guild. Or if the character can find a lone 'private' spellcaster that is willing to share the knowledge. There are downtime activities to do to try and learn a spell.

But in general, a character can't learn a new spell when "on" an Adventure. As my typical adventure takes place in the "Wilderness" far from civilizations. So I player can't just say "oh I walk back to the city to learn the spell". Unless that player wants to remove that character from the game. But, sure, sometimes and adventure will take place near or in a city. But still a character can't fight a couple of vampires, see a new spell...pause the game...and go research it in downtime. It is not like the DM and other players will just sit around and wait.



So....do things like spells count for "knowing all the game rules"?

How does "lore" and "game rules" mix? The lore of a spell can give you a lot of information about the spell....but the "lore" does cross over with the "stats" of the spell. Things like spell range, targets, damage type, effects, duration are al "lore" information, that is also "stats/game rule information". The Stats give you the spell lore for free.

Is it "too much" of a "burden" to force players to use Downtime to learn new spells?

 

[Charlaquin]

In principle, I am a fan of spells as treasure, and of spells existing that the PCs can only access by earning them as treasure, and I think it’s reasonable for the players not to necessarily have access to the rules for those spells. However, over 5000 such spells seems excessive. At that point, you’re basically asking the players to play a game where they don’t know the vast majority of the mechanics. Some players might be up for such a game, but most would probably not, and I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable of them not to.

Regarding learning new spells as downtime, that again seems reasonable in principle, but then you say most of the actual gameplay takes place far away from anywhere you could go to do that, and going somewhere to do so would constitute taking the character out of play. So, it sounds like players functionally can’t learn new spells. So, why not just say that? What actual purpose does it serve to say spells can be learned in downtime if the players can’t actually get any downtime? Instead of providing an avenue to learn new spells and then making it impossible to actually do so, why not just cut the cruft and say PCs can’t learn new spells?

 

[GMMichael]

So....do things like spells count for "knowing all the game rules"?

No. Spells are list items. List items are instances that use rules, like a character uses rules, but isn't one.

Is it "too much" of a "burden" to force players to use Downtime to learn new spells?

Sounds subjective to me. But "forcing" players generally doesn't go well.

 

[mamba]

I'm not so sure we count things like spells, magic items, monsters, equipment, and other such things in the game...as "rules"?

I don’t, and I would not guarantee that they know everything beforehand.

At the same time I would use that sparingly, if any spell they ever encounter is something bizarre they have never seen before and is not in the PHB, then that means they have no idea what they are up against. If every once in a while something can cast a spell or two they have never seen but that is similar-ish to the PHB ones, then that is ok.

Same for magic items, monsters, etc. The idea is to avoid gotchas while still providing something new / surprising instead of always recycling the same old

 

[MichaelSomething]

That depends on the goals of your game. And it looks like you and your players have opposing goals.

 

[TiQuinn]

So.....enter a small handful of players. They say that they should know all the "rules" before we start playing the game. They note they know all the published spells. So they say if the DM adds spells to the game, they should get the full spell write ups before the game. The players must have all the game rules.

lol, no.

I think this is just a case of these players not aligning with the way you want to run the game. There’s nothing wrong with creating new spells and allowing the PC’s learn the spell within the game play, but not beforehand. How is a new spell any different from a new monster? A new encounter, or dungeon? They sound like they just don’t trust third party or DM made material. Whatever the case, it sounds like a bad fit.

 

[bloodtide]

At that point, you’re basically asking the players to play a game where they don’t know the vast majority of the mechanics. Some players might be up for such a game, but most would probably not, and I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable of them not to.

That they don't know some spells {or magic items, or monsters) does not really say "they don't know the majority of the game mechanics". Does not knowing a goblin has the spell Icy Icicle really make the game unplayable?

Regarding learning new spells as downtime, that again seems reasonable in principle, but then you say most of the actual gameplay takes place far away from anywhere you could go to do that, and going somewhere to do so would constitute taking the character out of play. So, it sounds like players functionally can’t learn new spells. So, why not just say that? What actual purpose does it serve to say spells can be learned in downtime if the players can’t actually get any downtime? Instead of providing an avenue to learn new spells and then making it impossible to actually do so, why not just cut the cruft and say PCs can’t learn new spells?

Is there some easy way to learn new spells? Just take a short rest and learn up to 100 spells? Most downtime activities require the characters to be in the right place. They don't just stop at a random tree and say "My character does research here".

 

[Charlaquin]

That they don't know some spells {or magic items, or monsters) does not really say "they don't know the majority of the game mechanics". Does not knowing a goblin has the spell Icy Icicle really make the game unplayable?

Who cares if it makes the game unplayable? The question you should be asking is does it make the game better to play? And I imagine for the vast majority of players, the answer is no. It probably makes it worse.

Is there some easy way to learn new spells? Just take a short rest and learn up to 100 spells? Most downtime activities require the characters to be in the right place. They don't just stop at a random tree and say "My character does research here".

You didn’t answer my question. What purpose does it serve to have a rule that PCs can learn new spells during downtime if it isn’t actually possible to get downtime? Why not just rule that PCs can’t ever learn new spells, if the outcome is the same either way?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

If the DM is going to rewrite, or create, new spells that players will have access to, then it is incumbent on the DM to share those new rules with the players. You can, maybe, argue that keeping certain rules secret from the players until they are "seen in action" (e.g., an enemy uses them) is justified, since they aren't necessarily available to players until after that. But once the rules have been "deployed" in-combat, yes, absolutely, the DM should be furnishing their players with the details of those rules.

I am adamantly opposed to the idea that the DM should ever run their games as a total "black box" where the players never know what's going on. You cannot make meaningful, informed decisions in that kind of environment. That doesn't mean the DM has to be perfectly up-front about literally 100% of everything they ever do (that would quickly get tedious!), but changes to rules that affect players should be discussed to some extent. The specific numerical statistics of a creature, such as what its HP or AC might be? Nah, don't need to specify that unless there's good reason to. The mechanics for how a spell works so they can try to make good decisions about how to respond to it? Yeah, I definitely think that if one of your DM-controlled creatures casts a spell on a player character, you should be telling the players what's going on.

If the players aren't allowed to know what's going on, aren't allowed to figure out how things work, they can't make informed decisions. If you can't make informed decisions, you can't play the game. You can do some forms of roleplay (though there are still some limits on that, too), but you can't do gameplay without being able to make informed decisions. Roleplaying games are still games. A lot of folks conveniently forget that.

 

[Lanefan]

If the DM is going to rewrite, or create, new spells that players will have access to, then it is incumbent on the DM to share those new rules with the players. You can, maybe, argue that keeping certain rules secret from the players until they are "seen in action" (e.g., an enemy uses them) is justified, since they aren't necessarily available to players until after that. But once the rules have been "deployed" in-combat, yes, absolutely, the DM should be furnishing their players with the details of those rules.

Agreed. I don't bring new spells in very often, but when I do my rule of thumb for arcane spells is that the write-up doesn't go online until a character either gets the spell into their book, or casts it from a scroll, or otherwise learns enough about it that its details are known info. Just having it cast at you isn't enough to get the full write-up, though observant characters might be able to narrow down some basics such as casting time, range, duration (if any), and so forth.

The (all too rare!) obvious exception to this are spells actually designed and developed by PCs, the write-ups for which go online when the PC either starts using the new spell in play or "releases" the spell to others by selling it to a guild, letting others copy it, or whatever..

The write-ups for any new Cleric spells go online right away, as all Clerics of the same type generally get the same spells.