D&D General What it means for a race to end up in the PHB, its has huge significance

[Shardstone]

Did they explode though? I know players are lay them but I question the notion that their visibility in settings has changed much.

Phandelver has no tieflings or Dragonborn. Saltmarsh had exactly one tiefling. Waterdeep Dragonheist has no tieflings or Dragonborn. Hoard of the Dragon Queen has neither appearing.

So on and so forth.

For all the noise about having them in the phb, they’ve made pretty much zero impact on settings.

Tieflings and dragonborn have become very popular races.

 

[Shardstone]

Personally, we do not need anything but fantasy core 4 races: to make it simpler
Human,
Elf,
Dwarf,
Orc,

Being slightly small(halfling, gnome), can be a trait with bonuses and penalties:
I.E:
small(er):
drop weapon damage die by one step or cannot use Heavy weapons(whatever works)
limit on grappling lowered by one step as normal mechanics.
-5ft move speed(smaller legs)
+1 AC(smaller target, more difficult to hit)

Large(er): as half-giant, goliath, maybe even Orc
increase weapon damage die by one step.
+5ft move speed
-1 AC


Aasimar, tiefling, shifter, warforged, dhampir, dragonborn, changeling, can be just templates that add to core 4, so everyone of those are different to eachother.
It can be 1st level feat for power budget sake, maybe with 4th level feat with +1 ASI and something, something if that is too powerful to gain at 1st level or going out of bounds for a full feat at 1st level.

I honestly hate this vision.

 

[Horwath]

Oh, believe me, I hear you. It was incredibly frustrating to have to argue to folks that 5e dragonborn were actually incredibly weak relative to other races. I had people insisting (on both this forum and a previous forum) that 5e dragonborn were perfectly fine and I was just whining (or, alternatively, a "call me a dirty powergamer without calling me a dirty powergamer" situation.)

Yet another one of those "delightful" situations where folks insisted 5e couldn't possibly have problems for years and years, and now act like everyone's always known it was a problem and it doesn't need to be talked about anymore.

lots of people have zealous belief in WotC ability to make balanced game, even after the "perfectly average twilight cleric" fiasco.

 

[Horwath]

I honestly hate this vision.

why?

do we really need 15+ races in PHB that differ one from another by:
+/- 60ft of darkvision
one different starting skill
one different cantrip
+/- 5ft of walk speed

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Tieflings and dragonborn have become very popular races.

Indeed, despite my (well-known at this point) hyper-focus on dragonborn, it's not like tieflings are left in the dust. The data upthread shows dragonborn leading tieflings...but only by a nose. And both of them have managed to exceed half-elf, which is even more impressive, since that had frequently been second or even first place non-human race in previous data.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

do we really need

No, we do not. We do not "need" anything. It's a game. Nothing is "needed." Everything is "unnecessary."

The question is, or rather the questions are: (a) is it useful to have these things? (b) what are the consequences of having them? and (c) how do players relate to these things?

 

[Horwath]

No, we do not. We do not "need" anything. It's a game. Nothing is "needed." Everything is "unnecessary."

The question is, or rather the questions are: (a) is it useful to have these things? (b) what are the consequences of having them? and (c) how do players relate to these things?

heh, I get that.

But I really hate that ALL dragonborn, aasimars, tieflings, shifters and what not are same no matter what parent race is.

why should not elven tiefling be different from human one or dwarven?

that is one thing that I liked from 3.5e racial templates, pick base race, slap on template on it. Suffer the LA.
Since we do not have LA cost in 5E, and I do not want it, 1st level feat is a good cost for a template with possible 4th level half-feat for additional benefits.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Species are being intentionally downplayed in terms of their impact on character abilities. They no longer affect ability scores or skills, and are mostly there for aesthetic reasons, narrative reasons, and some biological differences (e.g. darkvision, stone's endurance, etc.). I imagine that we'll see more players choosing non-traditional species+class combinations, since they won't be nearly as incentivized to seek out optimal ones. I particularly expect that we'll see far fewer mountain dwarves.

Hybrid species can be whatever the player wants, but given that they are not being delineated as offering any unique abilities, they will only be chosen by players who have a particular aesthetic or narrative reason. So there'll likely be fewer of them.

i really think this is a shame that they're going in this direction, relegating species to basically character set-dressing, i want my choice of species to matter, to really impact how they play, this is a fantasy world so if everything is going to end up playing basically like a human with a different colour of paint then what's the point of having all these different options if they're not going to mean anything.

-

and on the actual thread topic, i think that being in the PHB is a big foot in the door for the species that are in it, it means they're accessible, both in players knowing what they are and their abilities and for DMs putting them in their games, but i think the real kicker for popularity after that is the species actually having some sort of focus as part of a setting, not just one or two token characters here and there but really being a significant part of the world, so players can really grasp their vibes, how they fit in to it all and what their culture is like as a whole.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I’m about to culture shock my group because we are going from 5E to BECMI.

I can hear it now “What do mean a Wizard can only be human? Elf is a class?”

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Then you are in very rarefied company. Dragonborn are (at least as of the most recent data) the third most popular non-human option, after elf and half-elf (which vary depending on survey which one is in first place).


For me, and I think for a lot of people who like them, this is a significant part of the draw. I don't want to be just a human who looks like they've had some tacky scales glued on at semi-random points. I want to look different.


Oh, believe me, I hear you. It was incredibly frustrating to have to argue to folks that 5e dragonborn were actually incredibly weak relative to other races. I had people insisting (on both this forum and a previous forum) that 5e dragonborn were perfectly fine and I was just whining (or, alternatively, a "call me a dirty powergamer without calling me a dirty powergamer" situation.)

Yet another one of those "delightful" situations where folks insisted 5e couldn't possibly have problems for years and years, and now act like everyone's always known it was a problem and it doesn't need to be talked about anymore.


Oh yeah, I very much expect people to be asking for gith. As stated, Dak'kon breathed new life into his race, and Lae'zel has done the same for hers. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if Lae'zel clones become the newest version of the same idea behind Drizzt clones. That is, a race where 99% of player characters are defectors away from the evil awfulness of their people and thus brooding loners with a need to prove themselves.


Dragonborn got an entire series where the adoptive father of the main character is a dragonborn (and also a gay man, which is some nice representation). The author, Erin M. Evans, has put a ton of work into Tymantheran culture, and some of it is really quite interesting.


Interesting. Somehow I missed this. Good to know we've gotten more recent data. Also, dragonborn continue to ascend; according to this, they're now the second most popular non-human 5e race, behind only elves.

More to the point, this still would seem to indicate that there's not a whole lot of room for stuff to grow even if it does get added to the PHB. Goliaths might rise, what, two places? Three? And if they do, they'll merely displace something that was already PHB in the doing, like gnome, further cementing the idea that being PHB isn't a guarantee of a win.


According to the above statistics (despite the terrible, AWFUL graph design), aasimar are only slightly behind goliaths in 11th place, at about 85k, meaning they're about 1/8th as common as humans, overall.


Ah, but there's a twist to that. Looking evil is cooler. Being evil is not. Being evil is generally pretty uncool, actually. But if you can look evil while secretly being good, you get the best of both worlds and an extra cherry on top: you get to be badass and impressive and do all sorts of showy (but ultimately meaningless) "evil" things, while doing the right thing for the right reason at the right time when it actually matters, and getting the "I am persecuted by those who judge a book by its cover" jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold vibes too. That's why things like Drizzt, Lae'zel, and tieflings are so popular. They get to cross the line thrice: looking evil and presenting "cool" outwardly evil/asocial/destructive behavior, secretly doing the right thing what-you-are-in-the-dark style, getting to indulge some petty revenge against those who wrongly judge them, but ultimately showing their superior moral fiber by not giving in to the revenge and doing something actually problematic.

All the perks, none of the drawbacks. Angels? Angels can only play it straight, being obviously good people who do obviously good things, or subvert it by becoming boringly actual-evil people despite looking like a good person. They can only cross the line once, if they cross it at all, but in a way that is boring and (these days) pretty over-used. "Pretty person is actually a haughty, self-righteous jerk worse than the people they condemn" is a stock supervillain origin these days.

Celestials are more then just Angels, and even with Angels their personalities, goals, and understanding of good can very greatly depending on what God or Pantheon they serve, or ideal. Remember its not focused upon much, but Angels and other Celestials of different alignments have fought wars against each other, leaving resentments and other issues so Celestials are more complicated then at first glance.