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D&D 5E What I Don't Like About Subclasses, and Potential Solutions.

Yaarel

He-Mage
I wish 2024 standardized all classes to have subclass features at the same levels.


Subclasses can be more fluid in design.
• Some subclasses are meant for any class to take.
• Instead of a subclass, one can take levels of a base class − a kind of multiclassing.
• Instead of a subclass level, one can take any feat.
• Some subclasses are a collection of thematically related feats. Choose, one, some or all of the feats.
• Mix-and-match subclasses − multisubclass.

It might be helpful to use feat levels and subclass levels interchangeably. As long as one meets the level prereq for the feature, one can take a subclass level instead for a feat level, or oppositely use a feat level for ability improvement, and the subclass levels to gain other feats.
 
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DrJawaPhD

Explorer
I think subclasses are generally a fine way to approach things, but I definitely do hate how they always front load the best abilities at Level 3 (or earlier for a few classes) and then suck at higher levels, since game designers are tempted to put the iconic abilities up front. This leads to multi-class dips into multiple subclasses being far more powerful than anyone stupid enough to play as a single class (with the only exception being spell casters since Level 6+ spells can be worth it)

I'd be all for any type of solution that had power scaling higher as levels increase, rather than the backwards inverted power structure that currently exists. That could be talent trees, or just designing the subclasses (and base class abilities) to be better at high levels, I'd be good either way.
 

mellored

Legend
The first, biggest problem with subclass in 5E is that you are forced to choose it and have it define your character ever forward, but you explicitly don't get to do that at 1st level. So, what? You just build plan to 3rd instead?
Yes.
Level 1 and 2 are tutorial levels.

Someone who has been playing for a while can forget what it's like the first time you tried. There are a lot of things to get used to, like being able to recognize a d8 from a d10. Give new players a few sessions with limited mechanics to play with first.
Folks who paid attention during the Next playtest might be able to shed some light on the design intent here, but I haven't read anything that makes it make sense.
The other reason is multiclassing.

Each level should add roughly as much power as every other level. Giving both sneak attack and cunning action in a single level is a lot.
Another problem with subclass in 5E is that they are generally pretty rigid. For most of them, you pick it at 2nd or 3rd and them make few choices going forward besides your ASIs or spells.
A lot of the choices in PF2 are false choices. Many of the choices lock you out of future choices.

A +4 Str fighter wielding a Halberd can technically take an archery option, but it's not really an option.

Or consider the 8 "choices" a level 14 gunslinger gets. 6 have perquisites, and Two-Weapon Fusillade effectively requires Dual Weapon Reload. With 1 generic option.

*Unless your playing Kineticist. Then you get to mix and match 2 subclass.

Some players will diversify and pick up a lot of different "initial" talents, while others will be happy to hyper focus and follow the tree all the way to the fruit (as it were). As long as there are no traps or taxes, this works fine.
There is rarely a solid reason to diversify. A fighter with +2 Str and +2 Dex is not going to do well, in 5e or PF2.
Nor in Diablo for that matter.
Prestige classes are kind of a fraught subject, of course, but to be clear I am mostly talking about those that tie the PC to the world with some cool mechanical bits and bobs. I am not talking about combat monster hyper-specialization prestige classes like the chain fighter or whatever.
That doesn't work because why take +3 to talk to the Red Guard of the North, when you could take +1 to hit to everything.

If you want to have mechanical connections to the world, you need to make a separate pool of resources.

PF2's skill and ancestry feats kind of do this. Though those are still mostly used for combat.

5e is adding a Bastion option, which might help. Give the players property to manage and defend. And you can't take a greenhouse into combat.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I didn't mention before: one of the things I especially like about Prestige classes is that they aren't the evolution of a class. They are broader than that. of course, they aren't usually universal, but your Guardian of the Slumbering King (or whatever) could just as easily be a fighter, ranger, paladin, monk or cleric, and with some effort a few other classes.
Yes! I was about to post this but decided to scroll down a bit first. Take the Divine Agent prestige class from the Manual of the Planes. You can enter the prestige class as an 8th level ranger, a 4th level cleric, a 4th level druid or an 8th level paladin. All of those combinations will feel and play differently. You can make so many more concepts in 3e/3.5e than in any other edition.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I have never liked the subclass system in 5E, but it has taken me a while to really understand why. Specifically, it has taken me running Pathfinder 2E to help me to understand why. So there is going to be some comparison in this post. But I am not also just saying "play PF2!" There are a lot of things I do like about 5E, and so it is an interesting design challenge to look for an alternative to subclasses that fits into the overall design ethos of 5E. And that is true even if I never go farther with any design other than this post.

A Note: This is not a + thread because I don't want to give the impression that I want to shut down discussion. However, if your point of view is that the existing subclass system is not only good but the right way to do things, I am not sure there is much for us to discuss. You might be happier in another thread.

The first, biggest problem with subclass in 5E is that you are forced to choose it and have it define your character ever forward, but you explicitly don't get to do that at 1st level. So, what? You just build plan to 3rd instead? It is a very strange choice that does not seem to have much of an upside. It simply locks you out of your defining features until you have bypassed the "squishy" phase of the game. Folks who paid attention during the Next playtest might be able to shed some light on the design intent here, but I haven't read anything that makes it make sense.

One solution to this is to have players pick subclass at 1st level and provide something -- a class feature or whatever -- at first level. And that's fine, but it only solves one aspect of the problem.

Another problem with subclass in 5E is that they are generally pretty rigid. For most of them, you pick it at 2nd or 3rd and them make few choices going forward besides your ASIs or spells. Some, like the Warlock, are better than others, with lots of choices in the form of invocations. But the Warlock is a design outlier (and actually one of the best designed classes in the game; but that's another discussion) and most players won't have too many chances to make development choices over the next year or 18 months of play. That feels bad to me.

So what do we do about that? This is where my comparison to Pathfinder 2E comes to the fore. Classes should have lots of options in a few different archetypical paths. PF2 does this through Class Feats, but that isn't the only solution. I think something like Diablo style talent trees is another viable system. Some players will diversify and pick up a lot of different "initial" talents, while others will be happy to hyper focus and follow the tree all the way to the fruit (as it were). As long as there are no traps or taxes, this works fine.

Another idea is to pair class feats/talent trees with a reintroduction of prestige classes (and whatever they were called in 4E). Let players who want to decide on a very focused thing with in-fiction ramifications. Prestige classes are kind of a fraught subject, of course, but to be clear I am mostly talking about those that tie the PC to the world with some cool mechanical bits and bobs. I am not talking about combat monster hyper-specialization prestige classes like the chain fighter or whatever.

In the end, the goal is to allow players to both create the character they want and to let the character develop throughout the campaign informed by the campaign. I don't think subclasses are a good way to achieve that goal.

What do you think?
The simplest solution to this problem, albeit one that would require more than just a light fairy-dusting of homebrew, is to fork out what 5e currently uses as levels 1 and 2 (and possibly 3 as well) and turn them into "zero levels," "novice levels," or whatever else we wish to call them.

This ensures that the choice of subclass occurs at first level, as desired. It also ensures that we can tailor the "gritty," high-lethality, few-skills, still-"green" experience to the specific interests and preferences of those who really want that experience, without forcing every player to either do a whole bunch of extra work, or slog through that same experience when it isn't wanted. Further, it allows tailored adventures specifically meant for "novice" characters, which can run a gamut from "introducing the player to the basic concepts of the game" to "DCC-style funnel" to "Tomb of Annihilation" and more. And, finally, if the rules are really well-made, they will allow anyone (not just those who like the aforementioned "gritty" experience) the ability to spool out the space between character levels significantly, meaning those who want slow advancement but not zero advancement can have a better experience overall, and even folks that want relatively quick advancement can smooth out the process of gaining levels to some extent, softening the sharp, digital gap between levels.

I will not stop advocating for (and this is very important) well-made "novice" levels. Such a system is one of the incredibly rare "have your cake and eat it too" situations, where everyone benefits, I guess with the sole exception of the designers, who have a new system to draft up and test. But I think that's well worth the substantial and pervasive benefits.
 

Horwath

Legend
1. I hate prestige classes, one of the worst things about 3.5e. It required so much system mastery to pick best(most overpowered) one.

2. Turn all subclass features into feats. Add extra feat slots at levels 1(2 or3), 6, 10, 14, 18, 20.

then you have class features that define class at levels: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,20.
and feat slots at levels 1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20.
 

Horwath

Legend
I feel pretty much the same way. I will say, the one benefit to subclasses coming at 3rd level is that it reduces the number of options you have to choose from during character creation, which can be overwhelming to new players. Like, if you’ve never played D&D before, having to choose not only between 12 classes but also 4 or more subclasses each, before even knowing what the base classes are like to play, is not ideal. But I otherwise agree completely.
why do some people think that new players are complete idiots?

In most cases that we introduced new players to D&D we started at 3rd level with 1st level bonus feat as 1st level characters are boring with next to nothing to do.

hell, you can even give everyone 3 feats at 1st level and not break anything in the game. It just help people to get their character concept working sooner so they can have more fun in the game.
 

Sulicius

Adventurer
why do some people think that new players are complete idiots?

In most cases that we introduced new players to D&D we started at 3rd level with 1st level bonus feat as 1st level characters are boring with next to nothing to do.

hell, you can even give everyone 3 feats at 1st level and not break anything in the game. It just help people to get their character concept working sooner so they can have more fun in the game.
Probably because they actually play test.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
The simplest solution to this problem, albeit one that would require more than just a light fairy-dusting of homebrew, is to fork out what 5e currently uses as levels 1 and 2 (and possibly 3 as well) and turn them into "zero levels," "novice levels," or whatever else we wish to call them.

This ensures that the choice of subclass occurs at first level, as desired. It also ensures that we can tailor the "gritty," high-lethality, few-skills, still-"green" experience to the specific interests and preferences of those who really want that experience, without forcing every player to either do a whole bunch of extra work, or slog through that same experience when it isn't wanted. Further, it allows tailored adventures specifically meant for "novice" characters, which can run a gamut from "introducing the player to the basic concepts of the game" to "DCC-style funnel" to "Tomb of Annihilation" and more. And, finally, if the rules are really well-made, they will allow anyone (not just those who like the aforementioned "gritty" experience) the ability to spool out the space between character levels significantly, meaning those who want slow advancement but not zero advancement can have a better experience overall, and even folks that want relatively quick advancement can smooth out the process of gaining levels to some extent, softening the sharp, digital gap between levels.

I will not stop advocating for (and this is very important) well-made "novice" levels. Such a system is one of the incredibly rare "have your cake and eat it too" situations, where everyone benefits, I guess with the sole exception of the designers, who have a new system to draft up and test. But I think that's well worth the substantial and pervasive benefits.
Personally I dislike the multiclassing mechanics and would rather see them replaced with some other system actually designed for gaining cross-class abilities but that’s me, my actual point is how would you intend for these ‘novice levels’ to interact with multiclassing if everyone starts at 3rd level?
 

The first, biggest problem with subclass in 5E is that you are forced to choose it and have it define your character ever forward, but you explicitly don't get to do that at 1st level
Whereas in Pathfinder 1st Edition, you were given the choice of playing the base class or playing one of the many archetypes of the base class. So you could be a Fighter and work your way through the picking of general or combat feats to meet whatever concept you had in mind. Or you could pick up a Fighter archetype such as Archer or Two-Weapon Warrior that had their own set of alternate class features for pretty much the same reason. Before I was invited by my friend and DM to play 5e, I actually liked this feature in PF1 over what 5e had with it's subclasses. I felt, at the time, that what 5e had was a tad too restrictive.

However, now that I have had over 2 years of experience playing 5e, I am okay dealing with how the subclasses work. As mentioned previously in this thread, there is less choice paralysis and less choice regret. The classes in 5e need more features though. 😋 Which is why I like the Level Up versions of the classes better. ;) The classes in Level Up and in Pathfinder 1st edition encourage you to stick with a single class in order to get all of the good perks. ;) And if you do feel like multiclassing in Level Up, the RPG gives you Synergy Feat Chains (the Level Up equivalent of Prestige Classes) to look at.
 

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