Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana - Mass Combat Rules

[aramis erak]

I am trying to figure out how to create a balanced mass combat with these rules.

Battlesystem says use the stats of one creature for the stand of 10. Cool.

So I plan on using the Challenge 1/8 MM guards as the mercenary infantry. Say 20 stands (200 infantry)

Versus, initially, Challenge 1/4 goblins.

So if I want a mathematically 50/50 wag (wild a** guess) of ether side winning, how many goblins?


And later on, when they run into the ogre army (Challenge 2) how many stands of ogres should there be for an equal fight?

I would really hate to have them lose their keep and the province because I misjudged the battle.


Of course, once I determine how to develop equal fights, I can mod them to make it harder or easier based on the situation etc.

Don't use the CR directly - use the XP Values as if an encounter (I'll call them Difficulty Values, or DV). At low CR's, it's non-issue, as CR≤1 is linear.

Use the default multipliers for number of stands... as if the other side were a 4 PC group.

Higher total should win.

 

[SkidAce]

Use the default multipliers for number of stands... as if the other side were a 4 PC group.

Multipliers to each side yes?

 

[Tormyr]

The nice thing about PEL is that you can mix and match PCs and monsters.

 

[transtemporal]

Interesting stuff but I prefer more abstract mass combat systems. The War machine rules from BECMI (and reprinted in the Rules Cyclopedia) is still the pinnacle of clean, fun mass combat design for D&D IMO.

Are you talking about the ruleset from the old Basic Companions set?

 

[Reynard]

Are you talking about the ruleset from the old Basic Companions set?

Yup. Still the best large scale abstract strategic battle engine IMO.

 

[aramis erak]

Multipliers to each side yes?

Yep.
So a hypothetical 10 stands of CR 1/8 is 25 x 10 x 2.5 = 625 DV
The opposing Cr1/4 is going to be around 5 stands... and isn in the 3-6 range, for x2.
Let's try 6 stands for even odds: 50 x 6 x 2 = 600 DV.
7 stands would be 50 x 7 x 2.5 = 875... a bit too far.

Looks like the 10x CR 1/8 is likely to be fairly close to 6x CR 1/4, but slightly in favor of the CR 1/8.

 

[transtemporal]

Yup. Still the best large scale abstract strategic battle engine IMO.

Yeah, totally agree. I've used it in every edition since basic. It's easy to calculate, intuitive to run and it keeps that action at the right level of abstraction.

 

[aramis erak]

Yeah, totally agree. I've used it in every edition since basic. It's easy to calculate, intuitive to run and it keeps that action at the right level of abstraction.

Unfortunately, it doesn't have the same results as playing out the battles; AD&D's Battlesystem was closer to an RPG fight match. Still, it's a fun way to resolve it, and get it out of the way for story purposes.

(Many sci-fi games got the unit-scale minis-game rules to match much more closely than anything yet in D&D... WEG's d6 Star Wars, FASA's Battletech, DP9's Jovian Chronicles & Heavy Gear, GDW's MegaTraveller and T:TNE)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Unfortunately, it doesn't have the same results as playing out the battles; AD&D's Battlesystem was closer to an RPG fight match. Still, it's a fun way to resolve it, and get it out of the way for story purposes.

Large-scale fights really shouldn't have the same results as small-scale fights because additional factors come into play: morale and unit cohesion for two. (When the trumpet sounds "charge", what fraction of the battalion is headed for the enemy at top speed six seconds later? Will be higher for veteran units than rookies, which is partly why fighting in the fields requires more experience than fighting from fixed fortifications.)

These factors can be neglected in small-scale heroic combat, or roleplayed by the DM ("the goblins break formation"), but in mass combat there are emergent properties. That's why Civil War engagements lasted hours instead of minutes.

In order for a mass combat system to add value, it has to leverage morale. This has the pleasant side effect of making PCs important, since they can decide their own morale, and possibly boost the morale of others. ("Follow me boys!") The UA system is unsatisfying on two levels: it doesn't add value at the morale level, and it removes value at the tactical fidelity level. That is, even for units of PCs vs. zombies (perfect morale), the system gives radically divergent results from the regular D&D system.

I'm interested in mass combat systems but the UA one doesn't work for me. I'd sooner use the DMG rules or even just roleplay the whole combat in TotM.

 

[SkidAce]

So, I calculated the %'s using both methods suggested to me.

Likely, since I wanted the battle to be 50/50 with out solos or PCs, it will be hard to tell which method is more accurate due to dice vagaries.
[MENTION=6776887]Tormyr[/MENTION]

20 stands (squads) of 1/8 infantry, PEL 2/3 = 13 1/3.

15 squads of 1/4 goblins, PEL 1 = 15.

Goblins favored to win.

[MENTION=6779310]aramis erak[/MENTION]

20 squads 1/8 infantry x 25xp x 4 = 2,000 DV

15 squads of 1/4 goblins x 50xp x 2.5 = 1, 875.

Infantry favored to win.


The battle is play by post...so results will be a while, adn there are some allied elven scouts (CR 1/2, 100xp, 8 squads) that could come into play, bt of course then the ogres will escalate...should be fun.