D&D 4E Tropes of the Nentir Vale

[Marandahir]

Asmodeus' Ruby Wand is a fragment of the Shardmind's Living Gate, right?

I need to reread the whole story with Pelor and Ioun and how the Gods are complicit in the shattering…

 

[Zeromaru X]

Asmodeus' Ruby Wand is a fragment of the Shardmind's Living Gate, right?

I need to reread the whole story with Pelor and Ioun and how the Gods are complicit in the shattering…

Nope. It was a fragment of the Hearth of the Abyss (itself an "evolved" form of the Shard of Pure Evil of the obyriths).

Pelor, Ioun and Tharizdun story with the Living Gate is mentioned in the PHB 3, and also developed a bit the Abyssal Plague main trilogy.

 

[Marandahir]

Nope. It was a fragment of the Hearth of the Abyss (itself an "evolved" form of the Shard of Pure Evil of the obyriths).

Pelor, Ioun and Tharizdun story with the Living Gate is mentioned in the PHB 3, and also developed a bit the Abyssal Plague main trilogy.

Right, but my understanding was that the Heart of the Abyss Shard of Pure Evil of the Obyriths was CREATED when Tharizdun shattered the Living Gate.
It seemed implied in one of the 4e era Dragon articles, but I can't place which one it was.

 

[Zeromaru X]

Right, but my understanding was that the Heart of the Abyss Shard of Pure Evil of the Obyriths was CREATED when Tharizdun shattered the Living Gate.
It seemed implied in one of the 4e era Dragon articles, but I can't place which one it was.

Tharizdun got the Shard from behind the Living Gate (implied in sourcebooks, actually stated in the aforementioned novels). Besides that, both things are completely unrelated in their origins.

The Living Gate already existed there when the gods were young, and they know not of its origins. Only that the gate connected to the Far Realm. The Shard, OTOH, was created by the obyriths in their original universe, and they used a "fissure between universes" to move the Shard to the Nentir Vale's universe.

Now, that the Shard ended up behind the Living Gate? That is the mystery.

 

[Undrave]

Since the idea of "headcanon" has been brought up, my headcanon for the 4e version of the Dawn War is that "He who was" allowed himself to be murdered by Asmodeus, and his essence became the "Primal Spirits" of the world that sided with the gods.

It's more that the Primal Spirits didn't leave them much choice they kinda kicked everybody's ass.

 

[Eltab]

I don't think so... in the Nentir Vale, the gods need to stand together, even the evil ones, because the forces of the primordials outnumber them by a wide margin. I remember some sourcebook that states that the gods, even the evil ones, grudgingly accept each others because that god that you kill today, is the one who may have saved your life when the primordials return (and they will return, or something even worse may take their place). So, the betrayal of the evil gods is really a dumbed down version of the gods of the Dawn War.

But I may say that because I'm a bit tired of the bored cliche of good vs evil that's so integrated to D&D.



I'm glad we never saw Mearls' Nentir Vale. Too many unnecessary changes for my tastes.

I think your 4e Sourcebook was The Plane Above: The Astral Sea.

When I read that book, my big lore takeaway was that the gods are outnumbered and overcommitted, they desperately need reinforcements.
... such as those L30 PCs that keep popping up.

(Godmind Epic Destiny was modelled on FR's Auppenser, IMO.)

 

[cavalier973]

It's more that the Primal Spirits didn't leave them much choice they kinda kicked everybody's ass.

You are correct. My memory of the story was fuzzy; I assumed that, since the Primal Spirits kept the worlds from being unmade, that the gods would count it as a win.

Maybe, given my theory, "He who was" didn't allow himself to be murdered, and was angry that the other gods elevated his murderer to godhood, so he kicked them out of the world.

 

[Zeromaru X]

I was under the impression that He Who Was was a load on the gods' side. An incompetent leader whose failures were one of the main reasons the gods were losing. I remember reading that is why the other gods did nothing when Asmodeus killed him.

 

[Marandahir]

I was under the impression that He Who Was was a load on the gods' side. An incompetent leader whose failures were one of the main reasons the gods were losing. I remember reading that is why the other gods did nothing when Asmodeus killed him.

Yeah, I've usually seen He-Who-Was interpreted as a variation on the "lethargic/apathetic/distant/patheticallygoodynice God" trope (Incarnations of Immortality, His Dark Materials, The Good Place, etc it's a common series of related tropes). This sort of trope plays very well with "why is evil allowed to exist" questions.

5e seems to intend that the Fiends of the Lower Planes could easily overrun the Celestials of the Upper Planes if they could set aside their fighting for once - it's not so much that the Good Gods wouldn't destroy Asmodeus and his devilish legions, it's that they can't afford to get in the middle of the Blood War outright, and the only reason why GOOD is able to endure is that EVIL is too busy fighting itself.

But 4e tells a very different story, since the Astral Deities, Celestials, Devils, Inevitables, etc are a whole host of alignments but work together to fight against the chaotic forces of the Elemental Chaos and the Abyss at its heart. He-Who-Was wasn't helpful in the War with the Abyss because he wasn't willing to break the rules and get his hands dirty or fight fire with fire. That unwillingness directly led to his chief lieutenant Asmodeus becoming the complete opposite of everything He-Who-Was was.

"He who fights mosnters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil. This is the story of Asmodeus as 4e tells it.

 

[Zeromaru X]

This is the story of Asmodeus as 4e tells it

And as I prefer it. I've always found nonsensical that the forces of the good aligned planes are portrayed as unable to beat the evil forces for no apparent reason. That's one of the reasons I dislike Planescape and it's Great Wheel.