D&D 4E Three general 4e mechanics questions.

[Anguish]

1} Is it definitively demonstrated anywhere that a natural 20 roll is an automatic hit? I understand that it "scores a critical hit", but I'm not completely certain that if 20 + to-hit-modifier doesn't reach the target's defense that it's actually a hit, critical or otherwise.

2} Is there a known defined mechanic for granting one's self a saving throw against ongoing effects? I've got a situation where a character was on fire through the application of a Firepot. There's little information there; it's got (fire) as a keyword and it deals ongoing damage. The player asked if his character could "stop, drop, and roll". In 3e, a full-round action would put out flames. In 4e, I don't know what's appropriate given the characters are given an automatic save every round. Heal can be used to grant a saving throw to others, so that might work. I don't know if I should've let the character take a standard or a full round, or what to guaranteed stop the damage, or if that impacts the intention and balance of ongoing damage (what if it had been cold damage?)

3} Is there any statement that prevents multiple shifts in a round? If a character were to shift as a move, then shift as a standard, this would be valid, yes?

Thanks for any helpful input anyone has. These are three concerns that have arisen in our group's first session of KotS. I'm trying to be conservative to avoid us learning bad habits, but I don't want to needlessly penalize my players.

 

[im_robertb]

1) It probably says that in the Keep on the Shadowfell Quick Play Rules somewhere.
2) Not defined, yet. That situation seems like a DM adjudication sort of thing. I'd say as a Standard action that leaves you prone, make a saving throw against that particular effect.
3) There is no such statement, and it would be valid.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

1} Is it definitively demonstrated anywhere that a natural 20 roll is an automatic hit? I understand that it "scores a critical hit", but I'm not completely certain that if 20 + to-hit-modifier doesn't reach the target's defense that it's actually a hit, critical or otherwise.

Since I can't point to a rules quite, I can only say that I am quite certain for this.

2} Is there a known defined mechanic for granting one's self a saving throw against ongoing effects? I've got a situation where a character was on fire through the application of a Firepot. There's little information there; it's got (fire) as a keyword and it deals ongoing damage. The player asked if his character could "stop, drop, and roll". In 3e, a full-round action would put out flames. In 4e, I don't know what's appropriate given the characters are given an automatic save every round. Heal can be used to grant a saving throw to others, so that might work. I don't know if I should've let the character take a standard or a full round, or what to guaranteed stop the damage, or if that impacts the intention and balance of ongoing damage (what if it had been cold damage?)

The heal description mentions the possiblity to grant a new save. In my DDXP playtest, I allowed a PC to spend his full round to put out flames (rolling one additional save), but I am not convinced that this was a good ruling (especially since there are no "fullround actions" in 4E). Maybe a Standard Action plus skill check (Acrobatics in this case) should sufice.

3} Is there any statement that prevents multiple shifts in a round? If a character were to shift as a move, then shift as a standard, this would be valid, yes?

Thanks for any helpful input anyone has. These are three concerns that have arisen in our group's first session of KotS. I'm trying to be conservative to avoid us learning bad habits, but I don't want to needlessly penalize my players.

Yes, you can shift twice a round, if you spend the actions to do so. ("Proof" is that there is no ruling to the contrary, only the rules for taking a move action to shift and the option to take a standard action to take a move action instead)

 

[Timeboxer]

The heal description mentions the possiblity to grant a new save. In my DDXP playtest, I allowed a PC to spend his full round to put out flames (rolling one additional save), but I am not convinced that this was a good ruling (especially since there are no "fullround actions" in 4E). Maybe a Standard Action plus skill check (Acrobatics in this case) should sufice.

What I ruled was that you can take a standard action to take appropriate action (e.g. if you are on fire, immerse yourself in water or go prone to roll on the ground) to gain a +5 bonus to the saving throw.

(She still failed.)

 

[MrMyth]

1} Is it definitively demonstrated anywhere that a natural 20 roll is an automatic hit? I understand that it "scores a critical hit", but I'm not completely certain that if 20 + to-hit-modifier doesn't reach the target's defense that it's actually a hit, critical or otherwise.

I seem to recall that when I was playing at D&D XP, the judge explained that with 4E rules, a natural 20 always hits. However, if (20 + to-hit-modifier) wouldn't be enough to get their defense, then it is simply a normal hit rather than a critical.

No actual rules quotes to lay out for that, but that sounds like how the system is going to handle it.

 

[Aloïsius]

What I ruled was that you can take a standard action to take appropriate action (e.g. if you are on fire, immerse yourself in water or go prone to roll on the ground) to gain a +5 bonus to the saving throw.

(She still failed.)

I think immersing yourself in water should be an auto success


You know what ? I think I have been corrupted by 8 years of D&D : I need a rule for everything and is unable to adjudicate on the fly (or accept the DM doing it). This hampered my last sessions of Ars magica to no end... Seriously, unless it's some kind of uber viscious chemical, a character jumping in water does no need any saving throw, and we don't need a rule about it...

 

[Blackeagle]

I think immersing yourself in water should be an auto success

Maybe fire magic in D&D has the properties of thermite.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Maybe fire magic in D&D has the properties of thermite.

At least that's closer to D&D fire magic than explosives or gasoline... almost pressure-less heat that can pass around corners...

Cheers, LT.

 

[the Jester]

What I ruled was that you can take a standard action to take appropriate action (e.g. if you are on fire, immerse yourself in water or go prone to roll on the ground) to gain a +5 bonus to the saving throw.

Yeah, I ruled similarly, though I also allowed the option of a move action to gain a +2 on the save as well as a standard for a +5.

I guess, in theory, you could do both.

Do we know, yet, what kind of action standing up is, and whether it provokes opportunity attacks?

 

[NMcCoy]

Move action to stand, does not provoke OAs.
As I understand it, the ONLY things that provoke are ranged attacks and non-close area attacks, and moving out of a threatened square.