D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Crimson Longinus]

It is NOT pointless. The fiction of the world is at least as important as the mechanics which, to my mind, exist to represent it. I will die on this hill.

Fiction is important. Semantical quibbling about the fiction isn't. Like said many times in many threads, "supernatural" doesn't make much sense when talking about a fantasy world to begin with, so arguing how exactly apply the word is pointless.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Fiction is important. Semantical quibbling about the fiction isn't. Like said many times in many threads, "supernatural" doesn't make much sense when talking about a fantasy world to begin with, so arguing how exactly apply the word is pointless.

As I've said many times in many threads, the supernatural label is for the real world players, not the characters. For them, people can learn to do a lot of things, and magic stuff isn't any different necessarily (although it could be). For the players though, that stuff is NOT intrinsic to the species, because humans are NOT magic in and of themselves. The world is. And it's not semantics anyway, because if it were folks would demonstrate supernatural abilities without training, because they would be inherently magical as a species, which humans aren't.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

As I've said many times in many threads, the supernatural label is for the real world players, not the characters.

So not about the fiction then.

For them, people can learn to do a lot of things, and magic stuff isn't any different necessarily (although it could be). For the players though, that stuff is NOT intrinsic to the species, because humans are NOT magic in and of themselves. The world is. And it's not semantics anyway, because if it were folks would demonstrate supernatural abilities without training, because they would be inherently magical as a species, which humans aren't.

No on is said they do it without training. Fighting monsters and having fantastic adventures is plenty of training to become a mythic hero.

I am simulationist like you, but what it is important to realise that the reality we are simulating in a game like this is not our normal reality, it is the "reality" of myths, stories and action movies.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So not about the fiction then.


No on is said they do it without training. Fighting monsters and having fantastic adventures is plenty of training to become a mythic hero.

I am simulationist like you, but what it is important to realise that the reality we are simulating in a game like this is not our normal reality, it is the "reality" of myths, stories and action movies.

@Chaosmancer does appear to be saying just that, with their talk of human farmers growing insanity pumpkins, generating flowers in their hands, and the like.

You can't just say that though. You have to explain what that means. Otherwise you're not simulating anything. The vast majority of fantasy and science fiction stories still assume Earth-normal conditions unless declared or obviously otherwise. You have to actually declare it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

See, to me the nature of the world makes training to perform supernatural actions possible. It doesn’t actually make the humans themselves supernatural.

And yet, instead of accepting that it is possible, you constantly demand that we explain it. You constantly say that training isn't enough, belief isn't enough, willpower isn't enough, it must have a supernatural source. You refuse to accept things CONSTANTLY because while I could train to manifest ghost arms, training to be strong doesn't make sense to you. Because people aren't that strong IRL.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And yet, instead of accepting that it is possible, you constantly demand that we explain it. You constantly say that training isn't enough, belief isn't enough, willpower isn't enough, it must have a supernatural source. You refuse to accept things CONSTANTLY because while I could train to manifest ghost arms, training to be strong doesn't make sense to you. Because people aren't that strong IRL.

You're training to develop supernatural abilities. How is that not supernaturally-sourced training? All I'm asking for is that it be honestly labeled.

 

[Chaosmancer]

@Chaosmancer does appear to be saying just that, with their talk of human farmers growing insanity pumpkins, generating flowers in their hands, and the like.

Taking my example out of context doesn't help your case.

Farmer Joe grows house-sized pumpkins. You demand to know why. Maybe he uses magic fertilizer, maybe it is because he learned druid magic, maybe because his family has fought and bled for the land for seven hundred and seventy-seven years he has a unique connection with the land, maybe he made a deal with a magic rabbit, maybe he was blessed by a pixie tribe, maybe he is the great-great-great-great grandson of an agricultural diety, maybe his family has selectively grown and cultivated large pumpkins for two hundred years, maybe he just is a really good farmer and the plants like him.

You can't just say that though. You have to explain what that means. Otherwise you're not simulating anything. The vast majority of fantasy and science fiction stories still assume Earth-normal conditions unless declared or obviously otherwise. You have to actually declare it.

The problem is, DnD deviates in all of the possible ways. Fey contracts, special bloodlines, unique training methods, magical lands, cosmic events, blessings from gods, curses from demons, pyschic powers. You keep sitting down and demanding the ONE explanation, because the explanation that "in this world, humans are capable of incredible feats" which is a true fantasy staple, isn't enough for you.

Maybe he grows pumpkins for Giants and they taught him a secret song which he thinks is magical, but the real truth is he has been replanting seeds from the largest pumpkins for hundreds of years and the original pumpkin seed was splashed with fey blood when they were at war with the giants. Who knows! Any answer is possible, why should we limit it to single, specific answer. This is a fantasy world, people are capable of commanding gods if they speak the correct words and can freeze time with their emotions. If you put the right words in front of the action.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You're training to develop supernatural abilities. How is that not supernaturally-sourced training? All I'm asking for is that it be honestly labeled.

Because it doesn't need to be. You accept so much in DnD, why can't the training just be more effective? Why do you need to insist that people cannot be more than what we have on Earth, unless they are doing something special, instead of it taking place in a special world where special things are possible?

Edit: Again, I point to Dragon Ball Z. People who learn martial arts in that world can fly. We see a lot of the training early on, and the training is already them doing things like shoving massive boulders across the land. And they got to that point by... learning normal, identifiable martial arts... and just being really good at it.

Second Edit: And the other thing. You keep saying that "all" you are asking for is it to be "honestly labeled"... We are labeling it honestly. It is training. Training that any person could undergo, just like all the martial arts and all the training in our world. And you keep going "no no, it must be different, it must be SUPERNATURAL training, unusual and strange training. Have you ever played Mortal Combat? They actually list the martial arts of the fighters. And, even with earthrealm fighters who are just normal humans, who somehow have mystical or supernatural abilities.... no special martial arts styles. Only normal styles we are all familiar with.

Sub-Zero knowns Ninjitsu, a real martial art people really train... and yet he can throw ice bolts with it, which aren't things real masters of Ninjitsu can do.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Taking my example out of context doesn't help your case.

Farmer Joe grows house-sized pumpkins. You demand to know why. Maybe he uses magic fertilizer, maybe it is because he learned druid magic, maybe because his family has fought and bled for the land for seven hundred and seventy-seven years he has a unique connection with the land, maybe he made a deal with a magic rabbit, maybe he was blessed by a pixie tribe, maybe he is the great-great-great-great grandson of an agricultural diety, maybe his family has selectively grown and cultivated large pumpkins for two hundred years, maybe he just is a really good farmer and the plants like him.



The problem is, DnD deviates in all of the possible ways. Fey contracts, special bloodlines, unique training methods, magical lands, cosmic events, blessings from gods, curses from demons, pyschic powers. You keep sitting down and demanding the ONE explanation, because the explanation that "in this world, humans are capable of incredible feats" which is a true fantasy staple, isn't enough for you.

Maybe he grows pumpkins for Giants and they taught him a secret song which he thinks is magical, but the real truth is he has been replanting seeds from the largest pumpkins for hundreds of years and the original pumpkin seed was splashed with fey blood when they were at war with the giants. Who knows! Any answer is possible, why should we limit it to single, specific answer. This is a fantasy world, people are capable of commanding gods if they speak the correct words and can freeze time with their emotions. If you put the right words in front of the action.

As I've said, not the way I see it. It doesn't have to be the same explanation for everything, of course (that would be pretty boring), but it needs to be something specific to satisfy me. Just going with, "people can do amazing stuff or whatever, because FANTASY. It really doesn't matter what" is simply not good enough for me, and it never will be. Its also not good enough for the vast majority of fantasy literature.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because it doesn't need to be. You accept so much in DnD, why can't the training just be more effective? Why do you need to insist that people cannot be more than what we have on Earth, unless they are doing something special, instead of it taking place in a special world where special things are possible?

Edit: Again, I point to Dragon Ball Z. People who learn martial arts in that world can fly. We see a lot of the training early on, and the training is already them doing things like shoving massive boulders across the land. And they got to that point by... learning normal, identifiable martial arts... and just being really good at it.

Second Edit: And the other thing. You keep saying that "all" you are asking for is it to be "honestly labeled"... We are labeling it honestly. It is training. Training that any person could undergo, just like all the martial arts and all the training in our world. And you keep going "no no, it must be different, it must be SUPERNATURAL training, unusual and strange training. Have you ever played Mortal Combat? They actually list the martial arts of the fighters. And, even with earthrealm fighters who are just normal humans, who somehow have mystical or supernatural abilities.... no special martial arts styles. Only normal styles we are all familiar with.

Sub-Zero knowns Ninjitsu, a real martial art people really train... and yet he can throw ice bolts with it, which aren't things real masters of Ninjitsu can do.

I'm not familiar with Dragonball Z (I know if it, but the style is really not my cup of tea), but I am familiar with Mortal Kombat. My explanation for that is either that they aren't really humans despite appearances, or there is supernatural training not being called out as such (messy incoherent worldbuilding in my opinion, but to each their own). In the case of Mortal Kombat, this is understandable for a fighting game that doesn't really care all that much about its own lore, and certainly less than they care about gameplay. I feel quite the opposite.