D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Chaosmancer]

You apparently have not taken part in the same threads I have, or are blocked from seeing the same comments on them that I can.

Perhaps. But should I then argue with you that the game should continue past level 5? Or perhaps argue with you that Elves should be allowed to have classes?

I can pick extreme arguments on the other side as well, but it seems pointless to debate their merits to the exclusion of recognizing that there are things other than the most extreme examples.

 

[Chaosmancer]

WotC doesn't define it because they leave it to each person to define it for themselves.

People say they want WotC to define things definitively and write them down in the book so that it's the same for everyone... but that only goes as far as WotC writing down what they want the answer to be. As soon as WotC defines something that the person doesn't agree with, then it's all hogwash and gets ignored.

So there's no reason for WotC to define something if the definition will be thrown out by a good amount of the playerbase. Thus they let players define it for themselves, that way they get it exactly the way they want it. Once again... Rulings, Not Rules. Maybe someday people will finally accept that that's a pretty good way to not piss people off.

That has a limit though. I don't particularly feel like we should need to rewrite the martial characters all the time, instead of asking for new abilities to be included in the game.

Frankly, most of us who are looking for more "supernatural" fighters and rogues are only using the terms because people demand it of us. We have to call them "supernatural" because if we don't, we aren't allowed to move beyond the"farm boy with a pointy stick" stage of martial. We need to say it is supernatural, because otherwise we end up with "well, sure, I'd let you jump on your turn and make three attacks mister 11th level fighter, but you will need to make a hard DC roll because I just can't picture a normal human being easily doing that"

 

[FrogReaver]

Perhaps. But should I then argue with you that the game should continue past level 5? Or perhaps argue with you that Elves should be allowed to have classes?

I can pick extreme arguments on the other side as well, but it seems pointless to debate their merits to the exclusion of recognizing that there are things other than the most extreme examples.

I’m with you and understand how you might feel that way having never heard these suggestions, but I’ve heard them enough such that they don’t appear to be ‘fringe’ or ‘extreme’.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The thing is to me it feels like people are claiming hitting ACs and DCs of 30 or 35 as supernatural.

You mean things beyond the impossible and stronger than the powers that rule entire dimensions? Crazy how one might think an AC higher than the Avatar of a God, or a DC stronger than anything accomplished by any Demon Prince might be supernatural.

Or a warrior having 5 fighting styles is supernatural.

The problem with that is... a fighting style isn't that impressive. You want to shoot a man through an arrow slit? The Archery style helps, sure, but you need sharpshooter for that. You also need a feat if you are going to knock someone prone with an attack. Even with the Great Weapon Style and the Great Weapon Feat though, you can't shatter castle gates with a single blow, or send a giant stumbling back from your counter. Heck, you CAN'T make counter-attacks as a fighter unless you are a Battlemaster with a specific maneuver and the enemy misses you.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I’m with you and understand how you might feel that way having never heard these suggestions, but I’ve heard them enough such that they don’t appear to be ‘fringe’ or ‘extreme’.

Could you give an example of one from this thread?

 

[Minigiant]

You mean things beyond the impossible and stronger than the powers that rule entire dimensions? Crazy how one might think an AC higher than the Avatar of a God, or a DC stronger than anything accomplished by any Demon Prince might be supernatural

My point is that they don't have to be supernatural.

The targets just can be really hard normal stuff.

The problem with that is... a fighting style isn't that impressive. You want to shoot a man through an arrow slit? The Archery style helps, sure, but you need sharpshooter for that. You also need a feat if you are going to knock someone prone with an attack. Even with the Great Weapon Style and the Great Weapon Feat though, you can't shatter castle gates with a single blow, or send a giant stumbling back from your counter. Heck, you CAN'T make counter-attacks as a fighter unless you are a Battlemaster with a specific maneuver and the enemy misses you.

Yeah.

But you can't even do not impressive normal stuff.

That's my issue with the conversation.

"Hight Not Supernatural Martial" isn't even defined not has rules to even determine what the Supernatural Martial is.

Where's the line?

We go from common knight and bandit captain straight to Thor and Hercules with nothing in between. The Illiad is Hoplite #362 and Achilles. All the other guys in the book, unsupported.

 

[FrogReaver]

Could you give an example of one from this thread?

Not exactly. Closest thing to that in this thread is probably the below post. But this thread is still young . When one comes to light I’ll tag you.

Just to be obvious, I want to point out that CR does not equal Character level (character level is a bit lower than CR, see the scout vs. a 1st level character for example).

That said, I can definitely see martial characters who follow a path where they gain abilities similar to certain monsters they affiliate with. Could be done with the current system via feats, but a better solution might actually be a sort of prestige class (though that's a slippery slope in that all classes could claim they should get as well).

Some creatures I could see where PCs get or mimic abilities:

Animal Lords (such as the Cat or Mouse Lord)
Angels/Archons
Beholders
Devils
Demons
Dryads/Sylph/Nymph
Elementals
Genies
Hags
Leprechauns
Lich/Demilich
Lycanthropes
Mind Flayers
Dragons
Giants
Griffons/Sphinx
Treants (the old Greenwood Ranger kit from 2E, for example)
Trolls
Unicorns/Ki-rin
Vampires
Yugoloths

 

[dave2008]

The thing is to me it feels like people are claiming hitting ACs and DCs of 30 or 35 as supernatural.

While I never made that claim, I can understand that argument. Max AC = plate plus shield = 20. So anything above that would definitely seem magical / supernatural.

Or a warrior having 5 fighting styles is supernatural.

Not at all. I think they could get one every level and be pretty mundane. That is just more options / skills. The only real reason 5e doesn't give more of them is for simplicity. As a DM I feel no need to restrict how many fighting styles a fighter learns.

Their actions neither break reality nor are powered by a supernatural source. It's just a really hard shot, a really tough dodge, or very difficult knowledge check.

Who's actions and what actions? Comic book heroes definitely break reality on the regular (or at least they used to - I haven't read a comic book in a bit over 30 yrs). But even action star movie heroes break reality on the regular.

But again, I am not suggesting anything a person can do shouldn't be in the game, just that it should be lvl 1-10 (or 1-15) or whatever makes sense. My point is I would like game to be able to accommodate real actions martial heroes up to some point and the also support martial "superheroes" of anime, comics, movies, and manga past that point.

It's "Batman in the Justice League" effect. He doesn't become supernatural to match Superman. He becomes an ace pilot, the world best detective, a master ninja, and his martial arts history is played way up.

Sure, and a lot of his abilities come from, or are enhanced by, gadgets, computers, and equipment: aka magic items. He is actually a bad example of the super martial because so much of what he does is enhanced by his equipment. That is the D&D way since forever!

 

[dave2008]

We go from common knight and bandit captain straight to Thor and Hercules with nothing in between. The Illiad is Hoplite #362 and Achilles. All the other guys in the book, unsupported.

See here is my issue with our conversation. We are coming from two different perspectives I think (well at least 2). You are talking about support as if we are discussing a real game. I am, and have been from my first post on this thread, talking about a conceptual D&D that I would like to see.

I absolutely think it should be a spectrum. Let's provide options for all types of martial warriors. I think you get most of them covered in 1-20 lvls and them some truly mythic ones in 21-30 or perhaps something like mythic boons past 20.

 

[Stormonu]

We have a game where dragons the size of passenger liners can fly, without it being considered magical in nature.

Give the martial a little room to be able to do a bit of the fantastic without having a meltdown about it being a spell. Let them beat the Olympic record for a long jump without having to use a jump spell to do it. Let him one-shot the BBEG's sub-boss.

It doesn't have to be something they can do every. single. time. They can be per short rest, long rest or longer-to-recharge abilities.

I mean, we already have the likes of Second Wind and Action Surge as templates to frame the wording, why not give them some higher-level oomph?