4.5 is perfectly fine for 3rd level. Especially at range, especially with an effect rider. Additionally, concentration is a thing you keep ignoring. IF I cast one spell, that shapes the battlefield for three turns, I don't need to cast two more spells.
And rolling a charisma check with a 10 Charisma and no proficiency is perfectly fine too. A 10 Charisma with proficiency is not considered "good" at the social pillar though. Similarly your character is not good at the combat pillar.
To take this further, the guy making a Charisma check with a 10 is more likely to have a bigger impact on a social encounter than someone doing 3 DPR is going to have on a fight at 3rd level. A 10 Charisma with no proficiency is closer to the best possible high Charisma build than Ray of Frost is to the best possible DPR build.
Additionally, how many encounters in the city do you have while delving a dungeon? You say 7 to 8 slots like I need to charm the village head, interrogate the spy in the tavern, scout out the ruins, and fight five different encounters all in the same day.
If you want to use spells to be good at all 3 pillars you need enough spells known and enough slots to be good at all 3 pillars, and I use Charisma regularly on days with lots of fights.
Are there days where you know you might not be fighting? Sure there are, but not many and there are very few days where you know you will be fighting but not making any Charisma checks.
The point is to be good at all 3 pillars. Not good at combat one day and good at the social pillar the next.
And you realize I could have built for that, if you DIDN'T insist that I absolutely needed to have a 16 Con, right? It is rather annoying that you keep harping on me for limitations you insisted on.
Yes, just like those fighters could be good if they do not insist on investing in strength. That is the whole point.
A character of ANY class can be awesome at ANY pillar with the right investment and build using all the RAW
options available. A character of any class can be good (but not necessarily awesome) at all 3 pillars with the right investment and
For a Figher or a Wizard, or most classes, taking a 16 Constitution is not consistent with that
"right investment" if you want to be good at all three pillars. If you take a 16 in point buy you are intentionally weakening your character in 2 of the three pillars of the game.
You do realize there is a difference between a frontline character like a fighter, and a ranged mage like a wizard, right? That since we were talking a strength fighter who is on the frontlines and taking the most damage, a high con makes a lot of sense for them. While a mage, who is in the back, shooting from range... doesn't need as many hitpoints.
A front line fighter is not going to take as much damage as a Wizard with no armor, no defensive spells and a 10 dexterity. Armor class matters a lot in terms of damage taken.
I have played numerous front line fighters with a 12 or below Constitution, I have played them at all kinds of levels, I have played them all the way to 20th level. I have only ever played one fighter with a 14 Constitution on point buy, and never any higher than that. I have never had a fighter die in 5E. I have had other classes, including a Wizard die.
For example if an enemy has a +4 attack bonus and the front line fighter has a 18 (mediocre for a front liner) and the Wizard a 10, the Wizard will take 2.5 times more damage per time he is attacked. That is without even dodging. The fighter will presumably be attacked more, but not that much more.
And what makes Con so special that it is the ONLY score you can't have a 16 in and be good at all 3 pillars?
Because it is the only abiity that offers almost nothing at all to the social and exploration pillars and while it does boost the combat pillar, it does not boost it a lot compared to the investment you need to make.
Also to be Clear a Rogue, Ranger or Bard can be even with a 16 Constitution.
Really. The moment I take any action, every goblin will immediately stop all other actions and target me specifically.
The moment you cast a spell yes. They will even take AOOs to do this if needed.
But yeah, what a load this is. First off there is a VERY small chance of the goblins actually getting surprise on the party.
On you and it is over 50%, since they have a +6 stealth.
We see a dead horse in the road with arrows sticking out of it, we are prepared for an ambush.
Being prepared does not negate surprise.
That is just too obvious of a set-up. Secondly, somehow my entire party only kills a single 7hp goblin in the entire second round?
No they only kill one before the others all attack you.
Because magic missile can kill one,
You can not use magic missile on an enemy you can't see. You can use Ray of Frost .... with disadvantage .... for 1 damage on average.
so I have three allies who failed to kill a single goblin on their turn? And if I don't have a target to hit, I can use minor illusion to create cover. \\\
Sure, now your AC is effectively a 12, they need an 8 and they have advantage to hit you. You know if you had shield or were in mage armor or had a dex bonus this might actually be significant.
And because I was the only one to kill a single goblin, and all the goblins immediately recognized me as the biggest threat on the field...
You are in no armor and you are casting spells and concentrating fire is the right tac
I'm ineffective at combat? Come on. I was the only one capable of doing ANYTHING for three rounds it seems.
No it takes you 4 rounds to kill one. I am assuming your allies downed one, maybe with the help from your average 1 point of damage with Ray of Frost.
So not even concentration. And yeah, if they have no choice. Almost like if I cast it effectively, it is going to be... effective for multiple rounds.
You keep mentioning Phandelver as your example. Have you looked at any map that ISN'T the forest encounter? Like the cave system immediately afterwards, with every tunnel and entrance being 5 to 10 ft wide? Wonder what I could do with a grease spell that every single enemy would have to pass through to reach the party...
Sure, tell me where you are going to use it in the cave system or in the Redbrands.
So... I can't attempt to identify a flower I saw six seconds ago?
RAW no you can't. Making a skill check is an action.
Using passive nature you may know what it is.
Wow. Not only rules lawyering, but specifically rules lawyering only in your favor.
Rules Lawyering against the Wizard I will point out .... but RAW none the less.
There is a reason the eyesight on Find Familiar only lasts a turn unless you are a Warlock with an invocation and it is explicitly to prevent this.
Also as you pointed out you don't need a check to do something simple, but if it is there is a plant over by door, exampling a plant to see if you knew what it was would require an action concentrating on it, not something you just notice just by walking by. TBH if you were looking at it through an Arcane Eye where you could do the check I still might pose disadvantage because you can't touch it, smell it or taste it as you might otherwise do on such a check, unless there was a specific visual cue that would give it away.
ROFLOL, yeah, 4 to 1 odds at low levels is dangerous. You think a level 3 great weapon fighter is doing any better?
Yes I think he would slaughter the goblins with little problem ... even with a 10 constitution.
70% chance to hit, 9.75% chance to crit. I'm roughing the math here, but it looks like the fighter might survive because 70% of 36 is... 25.2. Yeah, again, turns out 4 to 1 odds and being focus fired upon is... bad... for low level characters.
You are forgetting about second wind and action surge.
Oh, so you would do point buy. I was using the Standard Array. Funny how you either didn't notice or just decided to save that for your own build.
Now go scroll back all through this thread and I said point buy quite a bit.
Okay, so 7 vs 1. Because you are just assuming you will get a 1 hour rest between every attempt you will ever make on persuasion.
No, but it is a safe bet I can get it between every time I decide to use the dice. A lot safer than you will only need to use 2 or 3 spells to be good.
Shockingly... it doesn't work like that. And yeah, if you start going to battlemaster, then you have more, but oddly you seem to never spend any of these dice on combat. I mean, you assumed I must spend at least three leveled spells, and an arbitrary number of cantrips (which are unlimited) so 3 of your dice per day is equivalent?
Because I am purposely building a character to be good at the social pillar and I do not typically need to use any in combat because the fighter has so much on its base chassis.
Versus the same number of attacks you had my wizard taking? A 1st level fighter is dead in round 2. They only need to be hit twice.
Considering second wind, a typical 1st level fighter will need to be hit 3 times with a 10 Constitution, has a much higher AC and will not be targeted as much.
And when I gave my wizard, you challenged that you would have that skill, then this skill. I literally counted them. Six proficient skills. You are also somehow using point buy to get 16 strength, 16 wisdom 16 charisma, 12 con... that just doesn't work.
I did not say I had 16 Charisma and 16 Wisdom.
