D&D General The 13th Age 2nd Edition Kickstarter Has Launched

13th Age was released 10 years ago as a 'love letter' to D&D. Designed by D&D 3E's Jonathan Tweet and 4E's Rob Heinsoo, it streamlined the game and introduced innovations such as the Escalation Die, and it's One Unique Thing, a trait that every character has which is individual to them.

2nd Edition is now here--streamlined, clarified, backward-compatible, and updated with revised classes, monsters, and more. And, unlike the single book format of the original, this version comes in the form of a 240-page Player's Handbook and a 160-page Gamemaster's Guide.

You can pick up both books for £40 in PDF or £100 in hardcover format, plus dice, a GM screen, and more.

There's a free preview document available (12-page PDF).

Designer Rob Heinsoo spoke to EN Publishing's Jessica Hancock about 13th Age 2E last year on the Not DnD show.

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[Shardstone]

Glad its doing well; wish he embraced more stylish class concepts.

 

[Staffan]

The phrase I use is its "in the D&D sphere". I mean, its a derivative of 3e and 4e. It used armor class, hit points, levels (and the hit points elevate with level) and classes, and resolves with a D20 with most effects being produced by varied polyhedra. I'm not sure there's a game that includes all of that that I don't consider in the D&D sphere.

The way I like to think about it is pizza (and not in the sense it's usually used in that other thread). D&D is pizza. BECMI D&D is pizza, as is 1e through 5e, 13th Age, Pathfinder 1e and 2e, Starfinder, Arcana Evolved, d20 Modern, the various d20 versions of Star Wars, OSRIC, Hackmaster, various OSR games... they're all pizza. Different toppings, sure. Deep dish or thin crust, sure. Sourdough crust? Whatever, man. Still pizza. You may have preferences about which one is best, but they're all still pizza. None of them is going to get close to being a hamburger, or sushi, or curry (which would be the analogues for whatever other gaming systems are around, like BRP or PBTA).

 

[CapnZapp]

Is it just me, or does the timing feel off?

This year is all about 2024 5th Edition.

Once we have tried that, we're easily in 2025 if not 2026.

That would be a great time for a new edition of a game professing to be a D&D alternative.

Now? Not sure I'll remember to check out a game that will be over a year old by the time the initial buzz over D&D has died down...

 

[CapnZapp]

When introducing it to people, I often call it "an alternate universe's 5e." It's about as different as any edition change before.

Warm take: I do think there's a lot more people getting tired of 5e who would be much happier with 13th Age than PF2, because most people don't want more crunch/precision, they often want more room to tell stories (but they don't want much less crunch either which is why OSR and PbtA aren't stealing tons of market share.)

The problem with PF2 isn't chiefly that it offers more crunch, but that it's crunch is empty calories.

There's a lot of crunch, but very few instances where the game trust the player to make meaningful choices. Mostly the crunch boils down to incredibly controlled and limited "do you want +1 to this incredibly niche use case, or +1 to that equally nich use case"

To me 5th edition works because, yes, the crunch load is lighter, but mostly because the game trusts the players and the GM to a much greater degree. Your choices actually matter. The choices meaningfully impact your character's abilities.

Everything in PF2 is locked down to an obnoxious degree.

That and the unfortunate fact quite a lot of it's crunch being simply bad. The healing subsystem, for instance. A load of rules and decision points that ultimately isn't impactful, only busywork.

 

[CapnZapp]

The way I like to think about it is pizza (and not in the sense it's usually used in that other thread). D&D is pizza. BECMI D&D is pizza, as is 1e through 5e, 13th Age, Pathfinder 1e and 2e, Starfinder, Arcana Evolved, d20 Modern, the various d20 versions of Star Wars, OSRIC, Hackmaster, various OSR games... they're all pizza. Different toppings, sure. Deep dish or thin crust, sure. Sourdough crust? Whatever, man. Still pizza. You may have preferences about which one is best, but they're all still pizza. None of them is going to get close to being a hamburger, or sushi, or curry (which would be the analogues for whatever other gaming systems are around, like BRP or PBTA).

YMMV but I'm actually quite sensitive. If it veers to far off from regular D&D it just doesn't feel like the same game to me.

Games that do away with the iconic class structure aren't D&D to me; it needs fighting man, thief, mage, cleric at the very least. Classless games aren't D&D. Games that try to boil down the essence of D&D classes to, say Strong, Fast and Cunning "classes" are no longer D&D.

Games that do away with the six attributes aren't D&D to me. You can rename them or even replace them, but reduce to only, say, Physical, Mental and Spiritual traits, and you'll face a very steep uphill battle to make me consider your game "still D&D"*

D&D cyclopedia is D&D. 5th edition is D&D. Pathfinder 1 and 3rd edition is D&D. AD&D and DCC is D&D.

And microlites might remain D&D, but offers too little crunch to be of interest.

Lots of "this is D&D with its faults fixed" attempts do not feel like D&D to me, and this is likely why they fail so utterly.

They lose sight of what people look for in a D&D like game. They might have the best of intentions but end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater nevertheless.

Zapp

*) most games fail. In fact, I can remember only one man succeeding, and that would be Gary Gygax himself; with Mythus/Dangerous Journeys.

 

[CapnZapp]

Somethings are better as an opt-in, rather than an opt-out.

Yes.

And more to the point, replying to criticism with "you can always ignore it if you don't like it" is never the insightful constructive response you (not you Yaarel) think it is.

 

[CapnZapp]

One of the things i loved in the 1st edition book that I hope they continue was frequent sidebars directly from the Rob and Jonathan. Many of them addressed why they did a rule in a specific way, or the effects of changing certain rules, optional rules, and even in one case where they disagreed on a rule and the points for both sides.

Makes it really easy to hack when you have that insight into the design process.

Just a random comment:

I would think repeating the same design comment as in a previous edition would feel wasteful and redundant.

Commenting upon new or changed rules, sure, absolutely. Providing insight in previous design or comments, yes please.

But the previous edition design comments can always be read... in that edition. Better use that space for something new.

 

[CapnZapp]

2nd edition, much like PF2 became even more of it's own thing than PF1, will also likely come in more to it's own.

Just to clarify:

2nd edition Pathfinder is an entirely new game that does not build upon 1st edition.

It is to 1st edition what 4th edition is to 3rd edition D&D.

Just to say that if you wish for a game to "come into its own", maybe be careful what you wish for...?

 

[CapnZapp]

It's an F20 game according to the designers. I think that qualifies it as a version of D&D in some capacity.

TBH I have no idea what a F20 game might be. Did you mean D20?

 

[CapnZapp]

13a isnt 5e, but both are D&D.

Consider how different the editions of 0e, BECMI, 1e-2e, 3e, 4e, and 5e are from each other mechanically, but they are all part of the ongoing D&D tradition.

Likewise PF1-PF2, and other indies that continue the D&D tradition are D&D.

As I explained in a previous post, I disagree.

There definitely is more to being a D&D game than saying so