Spellcraft and Knowledge(Arcana) -- What's the Diff?

[Werdnam]

I was recently thinking of making a house rule for a new use of either Spellcraft or Knowledge(Arcana) to allow for the possibility of getting info about a magic item without needing to cast Identify. So I was reading up on Spellcraft, and here's some of the things it can do, from the SRD:

• When using read magic, identify a glyph of warding.
• Identify a spell being cast.
• Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll.
• Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook.
• When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature the character can see.
• When using read magic, identify a symbol.
• Identify a spell that's already in place and in ffect.
• Identify materials created or shaped by magic, such as noting that an iron wall is the result of a wall of iron spell.
• Decipher a written spell (such as a scroll) without using read magic.
• Draw a diagram to augment casting dimensional anchor on a summoned creature.
• Understand a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream.
  

All right, all well and good, and this seems to imply that Spellcraft would be the right skill for my idea. In fact, this list makes me feel as if every time I would consider someone making a Knowledge(Arcana) check, I would also feel as if Spellcraft would cover it.

So, can anyone give any examples of times when one of these two skills would be appropriate, but the other would not? Right now, it seems to me as one of the two should simply not exist -- they seem redundant to me.

 

[kreynolds]

• When using read magic, identify a glyph of warding.
• Identify a spell being cast.
• Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll.
• Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook.
• When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature the character can see.
• When using read magic, identify a symbol.
• Identify a spell that's already in place and in ffect.
• Identify materials created or shaped by magic, such as noting that an iron wall is the result of a wall of iron spell.
• Decipher a written spell (such as a scroll) without using read magic.
• Draw a diagram to augment casting dimensional anchor on a summoned creature.
• Understand a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream.
  

Right now, it seems to me as one of the two should simply not exist -- they seem redundant to me.

Knowledge Arcana is just like the other knowledge skills, it's very focused and doesn't get much use, but when it does, it sure is nice to have those skill points in it.

As far as using Spellcraft to identify items without needing the Identify spell, I wouldn't do it as a standard use of the skill. I like to restrict that to PrC and the like as a class ability.

 

[Werdnam]

Re: Re: Spellcraft and Knowledge(Arcana) -- What's the Diff?

As far as using Spellcraft to identify items without needing the Identify spell, I wouldn't do it as a standard use of the skill. I like to restrict that to PrC and the like as a class ability.

I was actually leaning towards making it a Knowledge(Arcana) check, going off the example Bardic Knowledge DC 30 task in the PHB (knowing the history of a petty magic item). I fully appreciate a reluctance to do this, though, as I feel conflicted about it myself.

 

[The Sigil]

Labwork vs. Theory...

I tend to think of the two as being the difference between "labwork" versus "theory/bookwork."

Spellcraft is the check when you're actively working with magic - when you're counterspelling something, trying to research a new spell, and so forth. Basically, if you're "getting down and dirty" with magic itself, spellcraft is the check to use.

Knowledge (Arcana) is the book-work/theoretical side of magic. Probably adds a synergy bonus to spellcraft checks when researching spells, but focused more on - well, theory. I use a Knowledge (Arcana) check to recall that Bob the Necromancer was said to have excellent skill with animation of plants. I use a Knowledge (Arcana) check to recall how a lightning bolt works on the elemental plane of water (or possibly Knowlege-planes). I use a Knowledge (Arcana) check to remember that the person who developed the various "Hand" spells was Bigby. I use a Knowledge (Arcana) check to remember what spells are needed to bring down a prismatic wall. In other words - use it for everything haveing to do with magic where you're not actually having to step in and "get your hands dirty."

Not hard and fast, I know, but hopefully that gives some guidelines for how to make them two separate skills. Some brilliant scientists in the lab couldn't do theoretical work for crap and some brilliant theorists didn't like the tedium of labwork. Spellcraft vs. Knowledge (Arcana) allows spellcasters to have the same sort of differentiation.

--The Sigil

 

[Caliban]

Spellcraft is for checks relating directly to spells. (Identifying a spell or glyph, researching a new spell, etc.)

Knowledge (Arcana) is knowledge of magic in general. You know about the various magical traditions, cults, and societies. You know a little about various magical or wierd beasts and abberations.

 

[EOL]

If some of the stuff I've read about the ELH can be believed at levels 20+ Spellcraft will control what spells you can cast and Knowledge(Arcana) will control how many of them you can cast.

 

[kreynolds]

If some of the stuff I've read about the ELH can be believed at levels 20+ Spellcraft will control what spells you can cast

Not exactly. I just saw the latest issue of Dragon with epic level spells in them. Spellcraft is used just like normal. You use it when you create new spells, including epic level spells. The only difference is that the DC is boat load higher.

 

[Gromm]

I always use Knowledge:ARcana for things that aren't in the books per say, or to determine other strange things.

Say the party comes across an ancient ruin within are some magical symbols and the like, but Spellcraft rolls don't work (since its not a spell effect from the book per say). *shrugs*
Gotta use it for something.

 

[EOL]

Not exactly. I just saw the latest issue of Dragon with epic level spells in them. Spellcraft is used just like normal. You use it when you create new spells, including epic level spells. The only difference is that the DC is boat load higher.

Good, that seemed like a weird way of doing things...

 

[kreynolds]

Good, that seemed like a weird way of doing things...

Don't worry. It's the same as it always was. What level spells you can cast are determined by your prime ability score, just like normal. I remember seeing that in the EL preview on the WotC site, and thankfully, as far as I know, it's still gonna be that way.