D&D 5E So what happened to like, the PrCs/Paragon classes and the multi-class classes?

[ccooke]

I really like this idea. I might quibble with calling something you get at level 10 a "background", but overall, I like the idea of adding a new, flavorful, trait and a few more skills in line with your character's accomplishments.

Dragonslayer
Prerequisite: You slew a dragon.
Story: There was a dragon. You slew it.
Trait: You are given the best rooms in inns within 200 miles of a dragon's lair. Nobles in those areas start at "friendly" toward your character.

Thaumaturge.

This is pretty much what they've talked about though, isn't it?

Traits are supposed to be something that you can earn in play - there was talk about how you'd do that when they mentioned the downtime system.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is something that they cover in the DMG, at least

 

[Boarstorm]

I really like this idea. I might quibble with calling something you get at level 10 a "background", but overall, I like the idea of adding a new, flavorful, trait and a few more skills in line with your character's accomplishments.

Dragonslayer
Prerequisite: You slew a dragon.
Story: There was a dragon. You slew it.
Trait: You are given the best rooms in inns within 200 miles of a dragon's lair. Nobles in those areas start at "friendly" toward your character.

Thaumaturge.

If the problem with the idea is terminology, might I suggest "Achievements"?

It's an interesting idea to be sure.
[MENTION=6695890]ccooke[/MENTION]: I've yet to really hear anything definitive regarding the downtime mechanics. If this is an idea they're already playing around with, well... I'm listening.

 

[ccooke]

If the problem with the idea is terminology, might I suggest "Achievements"?

It's an interesting idea to be sure.
[MENTION=6695890]ccooke[/MENTION]: I've yet to really hear anything definitive regarding the downtime mechanics. If this is an idea they're already playing around with, well... I'm listening.

The specific thing I recall was them saying that anything in the backgrounds could be earned using the downtime mechanics - so languages, skills, traits. Which makes sense, I think (I'm sure there were rules in previous editions for at least learning a *language* in play, right?)

Found the most specific article: http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130610

That doesn't mention directly handing them out as a reward, but that's such a trivial step away. The DM information is sure to contain a section about non-treasure rewards you can hand out (every other edition has addressed the subject somewhere), and if it didn't appear there I'd be amazed... and then go do it myself, anyway.

 

[Remathilis]

If I recall correctly, Feats and Subclasses ate Prestige Classes/Paragon Paths/Kits.

Prestige classes tended to be things that focused your character at the expense of other things (well, the good ones did; the bad ones were just toys stacked on your already given benefits). If they changed the nature of your character (a samurai, a gladiator, an illusionist, a priest of the sun, an assassin) then its a subclass. If it was a customization that gave you a little oomph without changing your focus (shadowdancer, arcane archer, combat medic) its now a feat. I don't think there is any prestige class that doesn't fall into one of these two areas.

 

[ccooke]

If I recall correctly, Feats and Subclasses ate Prestige Classes/Paragon Paths/Kits.

Prestige classes tended to be things that focused your character at the expense of other things (well, the good ones did; the bad ones were just toys stacked on your already given benefits). If they changed the nature of your character (a samurai, a gladiator, an illusionist, a priest of the sun, an assassin) then its a subclass. If it was a customization that gave you a little oomph without changing your focus (shadowdancer, arcane archer, combat medic) its now a feat. I don't think there is any prestige class that doesn't fall into one of these two areas.

Well... Mystic Theurge and its ilk - which are subsumed simply by the new multiclass rules.

 

[Remathilis]

Well... Mystic Theurge and its ilk - which are subsumed simply by the new multiclass rules.

That wasn't a prestige class. That was a rules-patch masquerading in a PrC's clothes.

Still, if you took the DMG PrCs

Arcane Archer: Feat allowing enspelled arrows
Arcane Trickster: Rogue Subclass focusing on ranged theft, minor magic
Archmage: Feat augmenting magic (alternately, just powers for high level wizards)
Assassin: Rogue Subclass focused on death attacks
Blackguard: Paladin Subclass focused on EVIL
Dragon Disciple: Sorcerer Subclass for draconic powers
Duelist: Rogue Subclass OR Feat (or both) focused on finesse able weapons
(Dwarven) Defender: Feat focused on armored defense (or even marking)
Eldrich Knight Fighter Subclass (confirmed I think) focused on magical attacks
Hierophant: Feat focused on uber-priesting (alternately, just powers for high level clerics)
Horizon Walker: Ranger Subclass OR feat focused on terrain and movement
Loremaster Feat focused on Knowledge checks and divination
Mystic Theurge: Multiclassing rules cover this
Red Wizard: Probably Feat for tattoo/circle magic
Shadowdancer Feat for shadow jumping
Thaumaturgist: Feat for augmented summons

 

[Li Shenron]

PrCs/Paragon classes - i.e. classes you go into at a level above first

They have been mentioned to be definitely not in the game at launch i.e. PHB/MM/DMG. They will be considered for future products, but no plans yet.

IMHO such classes are perfectly doable in 5e, in fact that's what I plan to do for some specific cases when doing a 5e conversion of Rokugan for my own use.

But my feeling is also that there is too much hatred for PrCl around, because of vivid memories on how many players abused them in 3e, and that will be the main reason why IMHO they won't be done in 5e ever.

classes which basically simulated a multi-class combo, like Fighter/Mage (3.XE was full of these, for basically the same reason 5E might need them)

They are definitely IN the game at launch, at least the Eldritch Knight (Fighter subclass) is almost certainly there.

Actually IMHO that will be the only such subclass at launch, because no other examples have been mentioned, and indeed that's possibly the one case most people asked for.

 

[Li Shenron]

If I recall correctly, Feats and Subclasses ate Prestige Classes/Paragon Paths/Kits.

Prestige classes tended to be things that focused your character at the expense of other things (well, the good ones did; the bad ones were just toys stacked on your already given benefits). If they changed the nature of your character (a samurai, a gladiator, an illusionist, a priest of the sun, an assassin) then its a subclass. If it was a customization that gave you a little oomph without changing your focus (shadowdancer, arcane archer, combat medic) its now a feat. I don't think there is any prestige class that doesn't fall into one of these two areas.

Yes, good points, but feat chains and subclasses still have limits, mainly in the fact that (a) you only have room for a few levels worth of features and (b) their benefits are spaced a few levels between.

So there may be cases when you have a nice concept that is too large to fit into 4-6 levels worth of features, or that you want the characters to build up without going excessively high up in level - and thus you may want to spread those features over consecutive levels.

IOW 3e-style prestige classes are definitely a worth mechanical addition, and very easy to port to 5e, not to replace but to complement feat chains and subclasses.

edit: you can also think of this in terms of feats and subclasses being "level-locked" while prestige classes can be designed to have a minimum starting level but then progression is free, fast (keep advancing in the PrCl) or slow (take a new PrCl level every now and then)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But my feeling is also that there is too much hatred for PrCl around, because of vivid memories on how many players abused them in 3e, and that will be the main reason why IMHO they won't be done in 5e ever.

I think it's really unfair to blame "players" for "abusing" PrCs in 3E. The designers are largely at fault here, particularly whoever was really "in charge" of 3E, for not clearly delineating what PrCs were for, and/or coming up with a pretty terrible/inconsistent idea, and then leaning on that idea to support a host of character types. The power levels of and entry requirements for PrCs were particularly horrifically inconsistent, where you had many PrCs straight-up better than any similar normal class or class combo of the same span of levels, but others were complete traps, and the entry requirements had no reliable relationship to the power or the class or even how rare it was intended to be (and in some cases no discernible connection to the theme of the class!).

 

[TwoSix]

If the problem with the idea is terminology, might I suggest "Achievements"?

We already have Polymorph that breaks on damage and red healing potions. If they add in Achievements, we'll have to deal with another whole edition of "X Edition is just like WoW!"