D&D 2E Skills - Take a step forward by taking a step backward to 2e

[Michael Morris]

I've grown tired of tracking skill points. Here's a draft solution.

Skills are merged as follows New Skill => Old skills

Athletics => Climb, Jump, Swim
Acrobatics => Balance, Tumble
Concentration (Unchanged)
Chicanery => Disguise, Forgery
Craft => Craft (All skills in one group)
Disable Device => Disable Device, Open Locks
Escape Artist (Unchanged)
Gather Information (Unchanged)
Handle Animal => Handle Animal, Ride
Heal (Unchanged)
Influence => Diplomacy, Initimidate, Bluff
Lore => Appraise, Knowledge (All Skills, taken individually)
Perform => (All skills, taken individually)
Perception => Listen, Spot, Search
Sleight of Hand (Unchanged)
Sense Motive (Unchanged)
Stealth => Hide, Move Silently
Spellcraft (Unchanged)
Survival (Unchanged)
Use Magic Device (Unchanged)
Use Rope (Unchanged)

21 skills in all. All classes start with proficiencies and, occasionally, masteries, of certain skills. If a character is not-proficient with a skill any check of the skill becomes a straight ability check. If a character is proficient he has a bonus equal to his (level +3) / 2, round down. If a character has mastered a skill he has a bonus equal to his level + 3. A character can use feat slots to gain proficiency or mastery. Proficiency is prerequisite to mastery for all skill feats (Hence a wizard wanting to master stealth can do so at the cost of 2 feat slots - one for proficiency and one for mastery. Henceforth he'll be as stealthy as any rogue with equal dexterity).

Feats under this system are gained at each odd level instead of each level divisible by 3.

Some classes gain bonus skill feats which must be used to buy proficiency or mastery with skills as detailed below.

Languages take up one feat slot / language. A character starts with a number of bonus skill feats OR languages equal to his intelligence bonus.

Here are the changes to the classes needed under this system (PHB only)

Barbarian: Mastery in Athletics, Proficient in craft, handle animal, heal, perception, sense motive, survival and use rope. Barbarians gain a bonus skill feat at each level divisible by 5.

Bard: Mastery in Perform and Lore, Proficient in Concentration, Chicanery, Gather Information, Heal, Influence, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Stealth, Use Magic Device. A bard's bardic knowledge feature is dropped - this is replaced by starting with mastery in lore. Bards gain a bonus skill feat at each level divisible by 4. Also, at each level divisible by 3 bards learn a new language. Finally bards have a number of bonus languages AND a number of bonus skill feats equal to their intelligence (other classes have languages or skill feats).

Cleric: Mastery in Heal, Proficient in concentration, influence, lore, sense motive, spellcraft.

Druid: Mastery in Survival and Handle Animal, Proficient in Athletics, concentration, craft, heal, influence*, perception, stealth, spellcraft. A druid is a master of influence when making rolls to influence animals and beasts. A druid gains a bonus skill feat on each level divisible by 4.

Fighter: No mastery, Proficient in Athletics, craft and heal.

Monk: Mastery in Acrobatics, Proficiency in Athletics, concentration, escape artist, heal, influence, perception, sense motive, stealth. Monks gain a bonus skill feat at each level divisible by 5.

Paladin: Mastery in Sense Motive, Proficient in concentration, heal, influence, lore, spellcraft.

Ranger: Mastery in Survival and Handle Animal. Proficient in athletics, craft, heal, influence, lore, perception, stealth, use rope. Rangers gain a bonus skill feat at each level divisible by 4. Rangers hit die is returned to d10.

Rogue: Proficient in all skills. A rogue begins with a bonus skill feat and gains an additional bonus skill feat at each level divisible by 2.

Sorcerer: Proficient in concentration, chicanery, gather information, diplomacy, spellcraft.

Wizard: Proficient in concentration, lore, sense motive, spellcraft.

(Yes, I know that made the rogue a little front loaded for players keen on skills, but meh).

Thoughts (remember - this is a 1st draft and unplaytested).

 

[Cheiromancer]

This is for first level characters, right? What were you thinking of doing with characters who multiclass?

 

[Michael Morris]

Multiclassing continues to work as it always has. You don't lose weapon proficiencies because your fighter became a wizard - you don't lose skill proficiencies or masteries either.

 

[Arkhandus]

But would that fighter-turned-wizard then gain the wizardly skill feats? I'm fairly sure you mean that the Intelligence-derived bonus skill feats/languages are only at the 1st character level, but I'm not entirely sure on the class-based skill feats.

Shouldn't Use Rope be absorbed into Sleight of Hand, or Survival? I hardly think it warrants its own skill with this compacted skill list (and it'll shrink the list to an even 20; how fitting for d20!).

I don't think Rogues should be proficient in Concentration, Heal, and Spellcraft. Also, I think they get a bit too many bonus skill feats....why not 1 at 1st-level and another at every level divisible by 3? As it is in this draft so far, the Rogue could have mastery in 11 skills by 20th-level without needing to spend any regular feats and without need for a decent Intelligence. There would only be 1 roguish skill left to master through a regular feat if the character wanted to be the 'Master of All Things Roguish.' All high-level Rogues would be almost completely identical in skills (with only a few minor variations from personal preference, like the odd duck who wants to be a Rogue who's also a master equestrian and a master attack-dog trainer....).

 

[Tonguez]

What if

1. Skill Feats are grouped by Ability Score
2. Classes get Mastery at first level
3. but Proficiencies are not specified- instead a Barbarian might get 2 Strength Skill Feats and 2 Wisdom Skill Feats
4. new Proficiencies are chosen as the class advances

It allows for great flexibility (which I like)

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think I was misinterpreting the way this was supposed to work. When Spoony said "level" I thought he meant "character level" which is why I asked how it worked with multiclassing. But I think it's supposed to be "class level".

So if you have 3 levels of a class that is not proficient, and 1 level of a class that has mastery, you'll have 4 ranks plus your ability modifier. Unlike the current system it won't matter which level you took at first level.

Let's see. The fighter has proficiency in athletics, craft and heal. To cover this in the current system you'd need to get 1 rank every two levels in climb, jump, swim, craft and heal. (I'll count "craft" as only 1 skill, but it is probably more useful than that). That's a little better than the current 2 skill points per level, but is less flexible, so that's alright.

The rogue is proficient in all skills. That would take 33 ranks every two levels to emulate in the current system, and I don't know how the "all skills, taken individually" is to be interpreted. How many perform or knowledge skills is a rogue proficient in, exactly? Add a bunch of bonus skill feats, and it seems too much; it seems more like 16 skill points than the current 8.

 

[airwalkrr]

Wow! I really like this system. It's awesome. I think a few tweaks are in order (reduce the rogue skills for instance). But otherwise, I think you really have something here. I love it!

 

[airwalkrr]

Ok, I like this so much, I am going to attempt to tweak it. Here is my version. It allows for a little more customization and simplifies a few things. I also noted you forgot Decipher Script, which I folded into Lore.

Skills are merged as follows New Skill => Old skills

Alertness (Wis) => Listen, Spot
Athletics (Str) => Climb, Jump, Swim
Acrobatics (Dex) => Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble
Concentration (Con) (unchanged)
Chicanery (Int) => Disguise, Forgery
Craft (Int) => Craft (All skills in one group)
Disable Device (Int) => Disable Device, Open Locks
Gather Information (Cha) (unchanged)
Handle Animal (Cha) => Handle Animal, Ride
Heal (Wis) (unchanged)
Influence (Cha) => Bluff, Diplomacy, and Initimidate
Lore (Int) => Appraise, Decipher Script, and Knowledge (All skills, taken individually)
Perform (Cha) => (All skills, taken individually)
Search (Int) (unchanged)
Sleight of Hand (Dex) (unchanged)
Sense Motive (Wis) (unchanged)
Stealth (Dex) => Hide, Move Silently
Spellcraft (Int) (unchanged)
Survival (Wis) => Survival, Use Rope
Use Magic Device (Cha) (unchanged)

20 skills in all. All classes have a skill list and a number of skill points (note skill points means something different in this system). A character can be untrained, proficient, or mastered in a skill. If a character is untrained with a skill any check of the skill becomes a straight ability check. If a character is proficient he has a bonus equal to his (level +3) / 2, round down. If a character has mastered a skill he has a bonus equal to his level + 3. A character can gain proficiency or master in a skill either by spending skill points or expending feats. Proficiency is a prerequisite to mastery for all skills (Hence a wizard wanting to master stealth can do so at the cost of 2 feat slots - one for proficiency and one for mastery. Henceforth he'll be as stealthy as any rogue with equal dexterity).

[I don't wish to change the frequency of feats, although the idea of one every odd level has merit.]

The skills each class may purchase proficiency and mastery in are given below, as well as the number of skill points each class receives. One skill point grants a character proficiency in a skill while two skill points grants the character mastery in that skill. At 5th level in a class, and every 5 levels after that, a character gains a bonus skill point towards a skill in that class' skill list. Alternately, once a character has mastered a skill, he can take the Skill Focus feat which gives a +3 to checks with that skill as normal.

Languages take up one feat slot / language. A character starts with a number of bonus skill points OR languages equal to his intelligence bonus. If the character's intelligence modifier ever increases permanently (such as when gaining an ability score increase at 4th level), then the character gains a bonus skill point in any skill that is on his class list.

Also, I presume this system throws the rules for synergy out the window. However, I can imagine a way to rework synergy. Proficiency in a skill grants a +2 bonus to a related skill. Mastery grants a +4. Here is a list of synergies.

-Acrobatics has synergy with Perform and Sleight of Hand
-Alertness has synergy with Search and Stealth
-Influence has synergy with Chicanery, Gather Information, and Perform
-Lore has synergy with Spellcraft
-Search has synergy with Disable Device
-Sense Motive has synergy with Influence
-Survival has synergy with Heal

Here are the changes to the classes needed under this system (PH only)

Barbarian: 4 skill points--Alertness, Athletics, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, and Survival.

Bard: 6 skill points--Acrobatics, Alertness, Athletics, Chicanery, Concentration, Craft, Gather Information, Influence, Lore, Perform, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Stealth, and Use Magic Device. Bards gain a +3 bonus on all Lore checks. Bards may spend skill points on languages instead. A bard must have proficiency in Perform to use countersong, fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, and suggestion. A bard must have mastery in Perform to use inspire greatness, song of freedom, inspire heroics, and mass suggestion.

Cleric: 2 skill points--Concentration, Craft, Heal, Influence, Lore, and Spellcraft.

Druid: 4 skill points--Alertness, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Influence*, Lore (nature only), and Spellcraft.
*A druid is automatically treated as having mastery in influence against animals and proficient in influence against magical beasts.

Fighter: 2 skill points--Athletics, Craft, Heal, and Influence.

Monk: 4 skill points--Alertness, Acrobatics, Athletics, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Influence, Lore (religion only), Perform, Sense Motive, and Stealth.

Paladin: 2 skill points--Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Influence, Lore (religion only), and Sense Motive.

Ranger: 6 skill points--Alertness, Athletics, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Lore (nature only), Search, Stealth, and Survival. [I wouldn't mind returning the Ranger's HD to d10, but if so, I would reduce his skill points to 4.]

Rogue: 8 skill points--Alertness, Athletics, Acrobatics, Chicanery, Craft, Disable Device, Gather Information, Influence, Lore (local only), Perform, Search, Sleight of Hand, Sense Motive, Stealth, Use Magic Device

Sorcerer: 2 skill points--Concentration, Craft, Influence, Lore (arcana only), Spellcraft.

Wizard: 2 skill points--Concentration, Craft, Lore, Spellcraft.

Once again, I really like this idea. Obviously, I have a slightly different direction to take it than the OP, but I think this idea is awesome! Thanks, Spoony Bard for coming up with it.

 

[Cheiromancer]

You probably shouldn't give the same name to a skill that is already given to a common feat. Alertness should be "Notice" or something like that.

Truthfully I would like 21 or 22 skills better than 20. One for each (numbered) card of the Major Arcana. But 20 is a nice number too, considering it is a d20.

I wonder if "appraise" might be better in "craft" than in "lore." While I could see scholar types excelling at deciphering encrypted documents, it seems that appraise is more a mercantile/craftsman kind of schtick.

Although obviously there would be folks who knew the value of jewelry who could not fix them. Such cases could be handled by bonus "background feats" that move skills from one proficiency group to another. A fence might use his chicanery score to appraise items, say.

The fact that one skill point gives essentially 1 rank per two levels is balanced by the fact that this rank applies simultaneously in several areas. A fighter who spends his 2 skill points on Athletics and influences has (level+3)/2 ranks in 6 different skills. Which is a little more than he currently could do (it's like getting 3 ranks per level instead of only 2), but that's OK.

What I'm not so clear on is why there needs to be an additional skill point every 5 levels. Although it fits a desire for broader character development, it does seem to make some high level characters far more skillful than the current rules do.

And it seems a low level bard will find it twice as difficult to learn perform skills as he does now. Whereas two skill points per level was enough in the current system to max out two perform skills, now it will only give him half that score. Maybe bards get two proficiencies for every skill point they spend on perform skills. A similar problem seems to exist with knowledge skills; two skill points are needed to max out a skill, while before it only took 1 skill point/level.

Maybe these two paragraphs balance each other out. I think it is more likely that some characters will get their skills hosed will others will receive a big boost. And it won't be the characters that need hosing/boosting either.

 

[airwalkrr]

You probably shouldn't give the same name to a skill that is already given to a common feat. Alertness should be "Notice" or something like that.

The Alertness feat is now defunct because of this new system. So renaming it isn't a problem. The fact of the matter is that the Listen and Spot skills are based on the AD&D non-weapon proficiency Alertness, therefore, I opted to simply conserve that terminology.

Truthfully I would like 21 or 22 skills better than 20. One for each (numbered) card of the Major Arcana. But 20 is a nice number too, considering it is a d20.

I have thought of separating Alchemy from Craft. That would push it to 21. I'm such a neat freak though that nice numbers like 20 appeal to me.

I wonder if "appraise" might be better in "craft" than in "lore." While I could see scholar types excelling at deciphering encrypted documents, it seems that appraise is more a mercantile/craftsman kind of schtick.

Lore could be used to identify items in AD&D, which is probably why the OP rolled it into Lore.

Although obviously there would be folks who knew the value of jewelry who could not fix them. Such cases could be handled by bonus "background feats" that move skills from one proficiency group to another. A fence might use his chicanery score to appraise items, say.

That would be a good way of dealing with it.

The fact that one skill point gives essentially 1 rank per two levels is balanced by the fact that this rank applies simultaneously in several areas. A fighter who spends his 2 skill points on Athletics and influences has (level+3)/2 ranks in 6 different skills. Which is a little more than he currently could do (it's like getting 3 ranks per level instead of only 2), but that's OK.

I agree. It's simple and that's what makes it cool.

What I'm not so clear on is why there needs to be an additional skill point every 5 levels. Although it fits a desire for broader character development, it does seem to make some high level characters far more skillful than the current rules do.

I realized that even with the skills the way they were, no character could never hope to learn them all, even a high Intelligence one. To me, a high level character should be a paragon of his class, that is, he should have mastery in more areas than a low level one. It is also an incentive to stick with one class. Of course, if you don't like the bonus skill point at level 5, you can ditch it for your purposes.

And it seems a low level bard will find it twice as difficult to learn perform skills as he does now. Whereas two skill points per level was enough in the current system to max out two perform skills, now it will only give him half that score. Maybe bards get two proficiencies for every skill point they spend on perform skills. A similar problem seems to exist with knowledge skills; two skill points are needed to max out a skill, while before it only took 1 skill point/level.

Actually, the way I was interpretting it was that Perform now encompasses ALL types of perform. The specific skills should be a roleplaying decision as far as I'm concerned. As long as the player comes up with a good enough reason, I have no problem assuming that a bard is a virtuoso who has mastered many instruments, and speaking as a musician myself who can play three instruments, it isn't hard to learn a second once you already know one, especially when sticking to the same class of instruments (like brass or strings). The Knowledge skills work the same way. The qualifiers I included for some classes (such as druids having nature only) mean they can learn Lore, but only gain the benefits of the skill when it pertains to nature. However, a wizard with proficiency in Lore effectively has ALL Knowledge skills with ranks equal to one half of level + 3. I don't see this as a huge problem as it streamlines the Knowledge skill. I don't think it is overpowering in any sense of the word. Assuming that Perform and Knowledge also means DMs can more easily allow other characters to have these skills, simply with a limited scope. For instance, a fighter may have had a background as being raised in a monastery and therefore wishes to have proficiency in Lore, but only for purposes of religion. Hence the fighter can have Lore proficiency, but he gains much less from it than a cleric or a wizard would. Similar things could be done with other skills, such as the cleric of Kord from a nautical community wanting athletics, but only for the purposes of Swim.

Maybe these two paragraphs balance each other out. I think it is more likely that some characters will get their skills hosed will others will receive a big boost. And it won't be the characters that need hosing/boosting either.

Well, I tried to make it so no one would get hosed. I think you misunderstood that Knowledge and Perform were all rolled into one. With that clarified, I don't think anyone really gets hosed.