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D&D 2E Revised and rebalanced dragons for AD&D 2e

OK, I was wondering what that number was. I initially thought it was the combat bonus!


Hmm. I think maybe reduce the size some and increase the damage some, so they meet in the middle so to speak. Personally, I wouldn't worry about a great wyrm red dragon doing insane amounts of breathweapon damage. IMO, they should and the PCs need to find was to counter this (fire resistance, bonus to saving throws, etc.) or avoid the dragon or figure out another way to deal with it. However, my general stance is that most PCs should be a TPK against a great wyrm, so I am biased.

I think smaller size (and possibly less HP) and more dangerous attacks will make a fight with a dragon more memorable.

I am less worried about the breath weapon damage (as the breath is something that pc's are the most likely to have prepared for) and more the trample/tail sweep/wing buffet damage spike. Physical damage is much harder to resist than energy damage.

Your idea is pretty good, I will see what I can do to create a more effective balance.
 

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dave2008

Legend
I am less worried about the breath weapon damage (as the breath is something that pc's are the most likely to have prepared for) and more the trample/tail sweep/wing buffet damage spike.
You can modify them or make them only usable once every other round or every 1d4 rounds or something to spread them out. That could make the fight more interesting too. Also, this might address the bigger issue IMO - to many attacks per round. The damage can be higher if you have fewer attacks per round. 1e had claw/claw/bite or breathweapon. Maybe the trample/tail sweep/ wing buffet are not additional, but options. Also, for tail attacks, you could limit to attack creatures it hasn't attacked with a claw or bite attack or something to lessen single target damage.
 

I have actually considered reducing the number of attacks to 3 per round and making some of the special attacks alternate options in place of those attacks (like what was done with dragons back in BECMI). I guess I just like how I managed to make things somewhat work with the six attacks and the alternate options. But I posted on this forum primarily to receive feedback and act on it so that is what I am going to do. I will see if and how I can make this work.
 


NotAYakk

Legend
There is a bunch of complexity in this I might want to simplify.

1. The various damage amounts for various attacks. I'd simplify it somehow. Less table lookup.

2. Options like "wing buffet" or "wing strike", "tail swipe" or "tail strike". A dragon that can only use the tail to swipe as dragony or more than one that can also ... stab with it? Similarly, punching with a wing vs making a whirlwind and knocking everyone away.

I'd do something like this.

Start with a base damage amount. Say, 2d4.

Unlock additional moves as you get bigger.

Having a wyrmling frantically do 1d2 wing damage is a bit zzz. I'd rather move the "damage budget" over to a Bite.

Imagine a progression (with growing HD) of:
Bite only
Bite+1 Claw
Bite+Claw+Special (Wing or Tail)
Bite+2Claw+Special (Wing or Tail)
Bite+2Claw+2 Special (Wing and Tail)

together with increasing damage in a pattern, so that (total damage) matches the target curve.
 


How is this for modified/simplified damage and abilities? Tail sweep, trample, wing storm, and wing buffet have all been removed, and the number of attacks a dragon can make in a round has been reduced to 3. In exchange, the damage has been increased significantly (although dragons are still limited in how many attacks they can use against an individual creature), and the riders on the abilities have been somewhat altered.

HD
Bite (x1)
Claw/Wing/Tail (x2)
1 +1​
2d6
1d6
2 +4​
2d8+1
2d4+1
3 +6​
2d8+1
2d4+1
4 +12​
2d10+2
2d6+2
5 +15​
2d10+2
2d6+2
6 +24​
4d6+3
2d8+3
7 +28​
4d6+3
2d8+3
8 +40​
4d8+4
2d10+4
9 +45​
4d8+4
2d10+4
10 +60​
6d6+5
4d6+5
11 +66​
6d6+5
4d6+5
12 +72​
6d8+6
4d8+6
13 +78​
6d8+6
4d8+6
14 +84​
8d6+7
6d6+7
15 +90​
8d6+7
6d6+7
16 +96​
8d8+8
6d8+8
17 +102​
8d8+8
6d8+8
18 +108​
12d6+9
8d6+9
19 +114​
12d6+9
8d6+9
20 +120​
12d8+10
8d8+10
21 +126​
12d8+10
8d8+10


Dragon Natural Weaponry and Attack Forms

A dragon may make up to 3 attacks per round, one with its bite, and two with its claws. A dragons coordination and flexibility means that it can strike any creature near it with any of its attacks regardless of their relative position to the dragon, and can split its attacks any way it chooses amongst multiple opponents. However, a dragon can only employ at most 1 attack against a single foe.


If a dragon succeeds on an attack by 4 or more against a creature two or more sizes smaller than itself, it inflicts an additional effect depending on what attack was used.

Bite: The creature is swallowed and takes damage as from the dragon’s bite each subsequent round. Swallowed creatures may attempt to fight their way out of the dragon’s gullet against an effective AC of 10, but only light piercing or stabbing weapons such as a dagger may be employed, and for each round that passes they have a cumulative -1 penalty to damage from such attacks. Nonetheless, any creature that succeeds in doing a number of points of damage equal to the dragons hit dice will be regurgitated from the dragon.

Claw: The creature is snatched in the dragon’s claws and is squeezed for automatic claw damage each subsequent round. The creature may still attack the dragon, but owing to the circumstances attacks are made at a -4 penalty to hit. The creature must make a successful bend bars/lift gates roll to free themselves, and may attempt to escape each round. A dragon can only hold one creature in each claw, and cannot attack with a claw that is holding a creature. A dragon may always voluntarily release a grappled creature, and may move with grappled creatures at half speed.

Wing: The creature is pushed 60 feet away from the dragon.

Tail: The creature is knocked prone


Dragons have several options they can use in place of making certain attacks. The following table provides a breakdown of a dragons normal combat routine, and the replacement options for each attack mode. Unless a dragon has multiple uses of a certain attack mode it cannot use multiple replacement options for the same attack mode in a round.

Normal Dragon Attacks in a Round
Can Replace With
Bite
Breath Weapon, Hypnotic Gaze, Psionic Ability, Spell, Spell Like Ability
Claw (x2)
Wing, Tail
 
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NotAYakk

Legend
Oh, don't get me wrong. I like wing storm/buffet/tail sweep.

I'd argue for these to "come online" at higher levels.

T1: Bite only (wyrmling)
T2: Bite + Claw
T3: Bite + Claw + Special
T4: Bite + 2Claw + Special
T5: Bite + 2Claw + 2 Special

Tail Sweep
All creatures in an area the size of the Dragon that doesn't contain a creature the Dragon attacked with a claw or bite.

Wing Buffet
All creatures within 10' of Dragon.

The Tail Sweep can't be used in combo with a bite/claw because, well, behind the dragon's ass.

The wing buffet has less range.

...

Most importantly, for design, record the total damage budget of the HD count.

On your chart:
1 HD is 14 (14/HD)
2 HD is 22 (11/HD)
3 HD is 22 (7/HD)
4 HD is 31 (8/HD)

If you started with 2d6 bite only, counting AOEs as 2, you'd get:
1 HD is 2d6 (7)
2 HD is (2d8+1 / 1d6+1) 14.5 (7.3 / HD)
3 HD is (2d8+1 / 1d8+1 x 2) 21 (7 / HD)
4 HD is (2d10+2 / 1d10 + 2 x 2) 28 (7 / HD)
5 HD is (2d10+2 / 1d10 + 2 x 2 / 1d6+2 AOE) 39 (7.8 / HD)
6 HD is (2d10+3 / 1d10 + 3 x 2 / 1d6+3 AOE) 44 (7.3 / HD)
7 HD is (3d10+3 / 2d8 + 3 x 2 / 1d6+3 AOE) 55.5 (7.9 / HD)
8 HD is (3d10+4 / 2d8 + 4 x 2 / 1d6+4 AOE) 60.5 (7.6 / HD)
9 HD is (3d10+4 / 2d8 + 4 x 2 / 2d6+4 AOE) 68.5 (7.6 / HD)
10 HD is (3d10+5 / 2d8 + 5 x 2 / 2d6+5 AOE) 73.5 (7.4 / HD)
11 HD is (4d10+5 / 2d8 + 5 x 2 / 2d6+5 AOE) 79 (7.2 / HD)
12 HD is (4d10+6 / 2d8 + 6 x 2 / 2d6+6 AOE) 84 (7.0 / HD)
13 HD is (4d12+6 / 2d10 + 6 x 2 / 2d8+6 AOE) 96 (7.4 / HD)
14 HD is (4d12+7 / 2d10 + 7 x 2 / 2d8+7 AOE) 100 (7.1 / HD)
15 HD is (4d12+7 / 3d10 + 7 x 2 / 2d8+7 AOE) 111 (7.4 / HD)
16 HD is (4d12+8 / 3d10 + 8 x 2 / 2d8+8 AOE) 116 (7.3 / HD)
17 HD is (4d12+8 / 3d10 + 8 x 2 / 2d8+8 x2 AOE) 133 (7.8 / HD)
18 HD is (4d12+9 / 3d10 + 9 x 2 / 2d8+9 x2 AOE) 140 (7.8 / HD)
19 HD is (5d12+9 / 3d10 + 9 x 2 / 2d8+9 x2 AOE) 146.5 (7.7 / HD)
20 HD is (5d12+10 / 3d10 + 10 x 2 / 2d8+10 x2 AOE) 153.5 (7.7 / HD)
21 HD is (6d12+10 / 3d10 + 10 x 2 / 2d8+10 x2 AOE) 160 (7.6 / HD)

At low levels, we have Bite = 2 Claw dice.
The AOE starts as 1/2 of a Claw (1d6 or 1d10 or 2d6).

At 13 HD it becomes 4d12s for bite, 2d10s for claw, 2d8s for aoe.

At 17 we get a 2nd AOE.

At 19 and 21 we get an extra 1d12 bite.

NOTE: I identified math errors starting at 2nd AOE. I undercounted damage at that point. Needs work.
 
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Oh, don't get me wrong. I like wing storm/buffet/tail sweep.

I'd argue for these to "come online" at higher levels.

T1: Bite only (wyrmling)
T2: Bite + Claw
T3: Bite + Claw + Special
T4: Bite + 2Claw + Special
T5: Bite + 2Claw + 2 Special

Tail Sweep
All creatures in an area the size of the Dragon that doesn't contain a creature the Dragon attacked with a claw or bite.

Wing Buffet
All creatures within 10' of Dragon.

The Tail Sweep can't be used in combo with a bite/claw because, well, behind the dragon's ass.

The wing buffet has less range.

...

Most importantly, for design, record the total damage budget of the HD count.

On your chart:
1 HD is 14 (14/HD)
2 HD is 22 (11/HD)
3 HD is 22 (7/HD)
4 HD is 31 (8/HD)

If you started with 2d6 bite only, counting AOEs as 2, you'd get:
1 HD is 2d6 (7)
2 HD is (2d6+1 / 1d6+1) 12.5 (6.2 /HD)
3 HD is (2d8+1 / 1d8+1 x 2) 21 (7 / HD)
4 HD is (2d10+2 / 1d10+2 x 2) 28 (7 / HD)
5 HD is (2d10+2 / 1d10 + 2 x 2 / 1d6+2 AOE) 39 (7.8 / HD)
6 HD is (2d10+3 / 1d10 + 3 x 2 / 1d6+3 AOE) 44 (7.3 / HD)
7 HD is (4d6+3 / 2d6 + 3 x 2 / 1d6+3 AOE) 48 (6.8 / HD)
8 HD is (4d6+4 / 2d6 + 4 x 2 / 2d6+4 AOE) 60 (7.5 / HD)
9 HD is (3d10+4 / 2d10 + 4 x 2 / 1d10+4 AOE) 69.5 (7.7 / HD)
10 HD is (3d10+5 / 2d10 + 5 x 2 / 1d10+5 AOE) 74.5 (7.5 / HD)
11 HD is (4d10+5 / 2d10 + 5 x 2 / 1d10+5 AOE) 80 (7.3 / HD)
12 HD is (4d10+6 / 2d10 + 6 x 2 / 1d10+6 AOE) 85 (7.1 / HD)
13 HD is (4d12+6 / 2d10 + 6 x 2 / 2d8+6 AOE) 96 (7.4 / HD)
14 HD is (4d12+7 / 2d10 + 7 x 2 / 2d8+7 AOE) 100 (7.1 / HD)
15 HD is (4d12+7 / 3d10 + 7 x 2 / 2d8+7 AOE) 111 (7.4 / HD)
16 HD is (4d12+8 / 3d10 + 8 x 2 / 2d8+8 AOE) 116 (7.3 / HD)
17 HD is (4d12+8 / 3d10 + 8 x 2 / 2d8+8 x2 AOE) 133 (7.8 / HD)
18 HD is (4d12+9 / 3d10 + 9 x 2 / 2d8+9 x2 AOE) 140 (7.8 / HD)
19 HD is (5d12+9 / 3d10 + 9 x 2 / 2d8+9 x2 AOE) 146.5 (7.7 / HD)
20 HD is (5d12+10 / 3d10 + 10 x 2 / 2d8+10 x2 AOE) 153.5 (7.7 / HD)
21 HD is (6d12+10 / 3d10 + 10 x 2 / 2d8+10 x2 AOE) 160 (7.6 / HD)

At low levels, we have Bite = 2 Claw dice.
The AOE starts as 1/2 of a Claw (1d6 or 1d10 or 2d6).

At 13 HD it becomes 4d12s for bite, 2d10s for claw, 2d8s for aoe.

At 17 we get a 2nd AOE.

At 19 and 21 we get an extra 1d12 bite.

I really like this idea.
 

dave2008

Legend
How is this for modified/simplified damage and abilities? Tail sweep, trample, wing storm, and wing buffet have all been removed, and the number of attacks a dragon can make in a round has been reduced to 3. In exchange, the damage has been increased significantly (although dragons are still limited in how many attacks they can use against an individual creature), and the riders on the abilities have been somewhat altered.

HD
Bite (x1)
Claw/Wing/Tail (x2)
1 +1​
2d6
1d6
2 +4​
2d8+1
2d4+1
3 +6​
2d8+1
2d4+1
4 +12​
2d10+2
2d6+2
5 +15​
2d10+2
2d6+2
6 +24​
4d6+3
2d8+3
7 +28​
4d6+3
2d8+3
8 +40​
4d8+4
2d10+4
9 +45​
4d8+4
2d10+4
10 +60​
6d6+5
4d6+5
11 +66​
6d6+5
4d6+5
12 +72​
6d8+6
4d8+6
13 +78​
6d8+6
4d8+6
14 +84​
8d6+7
6d6+7
15 +90​
8d6+7
6d6+7
16 +96​
8d8+8
6d8+8
17 +102​
8d8+8
6d8+8
18 +108​
12d6+9
8d6+9
19 +114​
12d6+9
8d6+9
20 +120​
12d8+10
8d8+10
21 +126​
12d8+10
8d8+10


Dragon Natural Weaponry and Attack Forms

A dragon may make up to 3 attacks per round, one with its bite, and two with its claws. A dragons coordination and flexibility means that it can strike any creature near it with any of its attacks regardless of their relative position to the dragon, and can split its attacks any way it chooses amongst multiple opponents. However, a dragon can only employ at most 1 attack against a single foe.


If a dragon succeeds on an attack by 4 or more against a creature two or more sizes smaller than itself, it inflicts an additional effect depending on what attack was used.

Bite: The creature is swallowed and takes damage as from the dragon’s bite each subsequent round. Swallowed creatures may attempt to fight their way out of the dragon’s gullet against an effective AC of 10, but only light piercing or stabbing weapons such as a dagger may be employed, and for each round that passes they have a cumulative -1 penalty to damage from such attacks. Nonetheless, any creature that succeeds in doing a number of points of damage equal to the dragons hit dice will be regurgitated from the dragon.

Claw: The creature is snatched in the dragon’s claws and is squeezed for automatic claw damage each subsequent round. The creature may still attack the dragon, but owing to the circumstances attacks are made at a -4 penalty to hit. The creature must make a successful bend bars/lift gates roll to free themselves, and may attempt to escape each round. A dragon can only hold one creature in each claw, and cannot attack with a claw that is holding a creature. A dragon may always voluntarily release a grappled creature, and may move with grappled creatures at half speed.

Wing: The creature is pushed 60 feet away from the dragon.

Tail: The creature is knocked prone


Dragons have several options they can use in place of making certain attacks. The following table provides a breakdown of a dragons normal combat routine, and the replacement options for each attack mode. Unless a dragon has multiple uses of a certain attack mode it cannot use multiple replacement options for the same attack mode in a round.

Normal Dragon Attacks in a Round
Can Replace With
Bite
Breath Weapon, Hypnotic Gaze, Psionic Ability, Spell, Spell Like Ability
Claw (x2)
Wing, Tail
Its getting there. A definite improvement. I agree with @NotAYakk that the various attacks should become available as the dragon ages. I also think more options is better(for older dragons), but there should be a limit to how many can be used in a round.
 

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