[proposal] Genasi Feat: Mindful Manifestor

[fireinthedust]

Hey there.

So I've seen the "Intelligent Blademaster" feat, which allows the Swordmage to use their Int bonus rather than Str bonus for Basic Attacks.
For them, or for multiclass Wizards, this is great: they can use their primary stat for hitting with a longsword, and potentially other magical effects from weapons. It's approved, and not considered overpowered.


I have another idea:

Mindful Manifestor
Requirement: Genasi (elemental manifestation)
Benefit: you may use your Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma modifier rather than your Str/Dex/Con as the stat for your Genasi Elemental Manifestation powers.


Why I want this: I'm planning on being an Elemental Tempest Wizard, and I don't want to be stuck with putting points into Con when the character might not be a Con or Dex person (maybe he's a Cha character). Personally, I like having options to personalize a character rather than only one possible build for a good Genasi Wizard/Tempest (high dex/Int/wand, or Con/Int/Staff, rather than a Wis/Orb/Int). The tempest powers shouldn't necessitate Wand or Staff, at least for this concept.
He's based on a superhero I have had for years in another game, who effectively had an amulet, which is kinda like an orb. There, you got me.

Why this is Ok: Elemental Tempest basically capitalizes on a racial ability. However, the stats that are currently allowed are fine if one is a fighter, warlord, ranger, rogue, cleric (con), swordmage, or Warlock (Con). Considering the racial traits of a Genasi, (+2 str and int) and that Genasi can base their manifestation powers already on one of them (Str), elemental tempests are already able to hit hard with all their attacks.
Also, other Wizard paragon paths use Int for all their Paragon abilities.
Either way, no big power jump here.
Also, all the additional Genasi abilities beyond Tempest cost Feats, which is the same for Clerics getting additional abilities, so I'm still spending resources to get anything beyond what wizards can already do.

 

[covaithe]

Hmm. I'm of two minds about this. First, I don't think this is unbalanced; in addition to Intelligent Blademaster, compare also to the Martial Training feat from PHB2 (which pretty much makes Intelligent Blademaster obsolete). This, like those feats, allows wider customization options at the cost of a feat, which I think is pretty reasonable.

The only thing that gives me pause is that Elemental Tempest is effectively the racial paragon path for Genasi. Looking at other racial powers and racial paragon paths in PHB and PHB2, they pretty much all have limited options for which attributes you can use. If I said yes to this, I'd be hard pressed to think of a good reason to say no to a dragonborn who wanted to spend a feat to use, say, Cha for its breath attacks because he was a warlock who wanted to go Scion of Arkhosia, or a half-elf wanting to use Cha for its Dilettante power, even when it's normally a Str power, etc. etc.

I'm starting to feel like all this easy customization is somehow paradoxically leading to more homogenous characters. I don't think that's necessarily a reason to nix this feat, but... Eh. It's 1 A.M. and I'm rambling nonsensically. I'm gonna shup up and think more about this, and see what other people have to say.

 

[ukingsken]

I see what you mean. Its the catch 22 right? If you say no, well you feel like you've nixed a perfectly "balanced" feat. But if you say yes you might be opening pandora's box of feats which then reduce the character races to simple flavour text? Thats kind of how I read it and I agree. Saying yes to this sets a precedent so its a bigger deal then just this one circumstance.

 

[fireinthedust]

fair enough, both posts.


My question to that is: what line are we worried about drawing?


What is the goal of each race? Take humans: good at any of multiple classes. Or Half-elves: multiclass options.

Genasi are about racial powers, sure, same with Elemental Tempest. But this is how they're built.

The only difference between that and, say, a Wizard's power source, is the "fluff" text of where that power is coming from.

we all get the same number of at-will, encounter, Daily and Utility spells. Some class options add to that, such as cleric feats.

Classes can be made to spend as many feats to get as many powers and options. Saying that a race can't do the same, as a matter of aesthetic taste, isn't necessarily going to unbalance the game or structure of 4e. It just opens up more options.

What about the theoretical Necromancer, whose powers will come from Shadow? What if a Shadar-kai played one? Would the in-character explaination that their powers come from their inherent racial Shadow-link mean that the game in general is becoming more vanilla? Or a Gnome using the Dragon article Illusionist wizard spells? Or a Tiefling Infernal Pact Warlock using a connection with their class/race abilities based on that ancient pact?

Also: OD&D (if you lot still remember) had racial Classes: the elf could fight and cast spells.

4e allowing that sort of mixture? that would be cool. And true to the way the game was made, back in the day. (using the Tradition card here, fellow grognars)


And since all characters can use the same number of powers, with the same ability score/level/item caps (usually), it's not doing anything else than allowing me one option for a Genasi wizard build that I otherwise might not be able to have.

Rather than having yet another of the exact same build/race/class combo.

 

[Ozymandias79]

My question to you are, have you taken in account the update that they did for FRPG?

I mean a stat+5/6 to hit is going to hit a lot even with a 10 in that stat

 

[covaithe]

After a good sleep, I've put my finger on one thing that bothers me about this, that I couldn't quite articulate last night: feats like this make it easier to get away with a 20 in your primary stat. A wizard with 20 int without this feat is likely to have only a +1 in his ability modifier for manifestations. Possibly as high as +3, if they max dexterity. With this feat, it's +5. A genasi swordmage with 20 int, this feat, and intelligent blademaster, has better numbers for every attack than one with 18 int and 16 str. Of course the latter has better defenses and 2 feats to play with, but... These feats make it slightly less painful to play with that 20 int. And I don't really feel like that's a trend I want to encourage. I might be verging into "you kids get off my lawn" territory here, but I think some of these options undermine the built-in incentives to create well-rounded characters, rather than optimizing one specific thing.

 

[ukingsken]

What I think you mean to say is you're worried this kind of feat opens the gate to munchkin ville. But you're right, this kind of feat not only opens but almost encourages "optomized" characters. And thinking about it I kind of feel like the manifestation powers use the three physical stats because the manifestations are a part of your physical being.

These manifestations may be natural to your race, but they arent natural. They put strain on the body and I feel like thats why it uses a physical stat. It's supposed to reflect the physical strain required for the manifestation. Or maybe I'm totally off target and just rambling, who knows.

Edit: Not to say optomized characters shouldn't exist. Some people in reality focus on one thing and one thing only to the exclusion and detriment of everything around them. I just feel like this allows the kind of optomization where you sacrifice a lot less for it.

 

[fireinthedust]

Yeah, I've thought about the optimization levels of it somewhat.

I think my take on it is that the physical side of things means that only warriors get the benefit of the Manifestations. 4e, unlike previous editions, doesn't have that massive avalanche of power creep for spellcasters above other classes the other editions had. The whole idea of balance, that everyone has the same power output merely with different primary stats and effect styles (strikers vs one guy, controllers vs. a bunch), really makes a big difference.
A difference for 4e is that we're not looking at the "reasons" things are the way they are. We're looking at what makes a fun game for the PCs.

In fact, considering the Manifestations are stormSOUL and fireSOUL, it does seem that having the elemental side of things physical is not necessarily correct.


Now taking the feats doesn't rely on a stat as much as I'd thought; specifically, Airsoul and Watersoul give movement, and Stormsoul gives me that extra d8 lightning damage. Earth and Fire are where the attacks come in, and the Elemental Tempest paragon path powers.

I do see the counter-argument, that it would allow a character to just jump in with one stat (Int) and have all their powers come off of that; that it seems like a bid at optimization.
I just don't know that this sort of optimization is necessarily bad for the game, or that different from the classes that are already out there. A Barbarian Genasi, for example, with stormsoul and earthsoul, would be adding their primary stat (Str) to their single-target damage already. Swordmages don't need a high Str as it stands with Intelligent Blademaster.

CORRECTING IT: would it be alright if this was a Wizard feat? Like, pre-requisite: Genasi, Wizard.

That way a Swordmage wouldn't be able to use it AND intelligent blademaster to power their way through having only the one stat needed.

 

[covaithe]

No, that doesn't really help for me. Why should only wizards have access to this? I don't see any fluff or balance reason. The situation with swordmaster + int. blademaster + this is almost exactly parallel to wizard + melee training + this. In fact, it's slightly more optimization-friendly for wizards, since a ranged controller is less bothered by having one low defense (which is the main downside to having a 20 primary stat) than is a melee defender.

The thing I have trouble getting past is that there are a lot of feats available to modify a dragonborn's breath weapon, but nothing that resembles this. Why?

However, I'm only one judge; there are four more and they haven't really weighed in on this. You might have better luck convincing them than me.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Hmmm ... I just read through the posts you guys made this weekend. I'll weigh in on this eventually, it just ... might take a while. With RL as it is at the moment, keeping up with the games I'm involved in and trying to keep up with character approvals has me pretty busy, probably for a good couple of weeks. I'll read along, though, and if I find a few spare minutes with a good thought, I'll throw it in.