D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[Snarf Zagyg]

While I want the base monk to rely on Simple Weapons, I think there is design space to broaden that in a subclass. Maybe the 4th subclass for the monk can be a Weapon-Focused monk (perhaps "Warrior of Steel")

I'm going to go in with one additional comment about the Monk class re-design.

I call it the D&D "level" problem. It's been known since ... um, well, since 1e. Basically, the overuse of the word level to describe different things.

The level of your character.
The level of spells.
The level of the dungeon.

If you've been playing for any length of time, this doesn't bother you too much. But it is a barrier to entry (less so with the dungeon part nowadays) to explain to people why a 5th level Wizard doesn't cast 5th level spells.

So, they are introducing the "Warrior" group. Great! And they are getting rid of the "Way of ..." subclass. Okay. So of all the words in the English language they could possibly use, why would they choose the exact same term they are using for their newly created CLASS GROUPING to refer to a SUBCLASS GROUPING.

Eh, forget it Jake. It's Chinatown.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think part of the issue is they wanted to simplify the Monk weapon choices. Instead of a "simple weapons plus one specific martial weapon", they went with just "simple weapons". Then fiddled with where to put the short sword.

Adding the short sword back doesn't fix much, other than giving the Monk a finesse weapon. They've already got handaxe for the weapon mastery property Vex if they want.

I don't know if opening up all martial weapons to the Monk is the answer either, for the way some of those weapons may out-class their bare-handed attacks, plus really killing the flavor of the class. I personally don't like the mental picture of a great-axe wielding, first level monk.

Or we could harken back to earlier editions and have the monk with an eclectic list of specific weapons, a mix of simple and martial, which would give them more options. But again, for the sake of simplicity, I doubt they'll go this way.

Perhaps giving them some of the versatility of the fighter with regard to weapon masteries might help, enabling the ability to apply masteries to weapons other than what the weapon is listed with. Feels very Jackie-Chan-improvisational-martial-artist to me.

Well, at the very least, giving them the shortsword again re-opens all those feats.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You seemed to ignore the part, where I agreed with @Clint_L ...

And since I can´t look into the future, I can´t say how much of a buff we might see. A rogue pays with a lot of D6s for special effects. So going down from d12 to d4 for one attack might not be too bad if the effect justifies it.

We have to make sure we compare like to like however. Unless the simple weapons get a major overhaul, we know what masteries are on the table. And all of them have a stronger weapon available that does the same thing, but are usable by martials.

Now, sure, Rogues being able to drop a d6 for prone is comparable... but what about dropping a d6 for persistent disadvantage on enemy attacks? Sap is disadvantage on a single attack, so those two abilities aren't really that close. And, we cannot forget, even with sacrificing the dice, the Rogue does more damage than the monk by higher levels. The only ability that would cause a rogue to deal LESS damage than a monk is Knockout. Which is a very powerful ability as is. Pretty much anything else they use gives them an effect AND more damage than the monk.

The baby is the monk class overall. I like it. So it does not need to have a complete overhaul. The first rogue was a miss too. The second one did improve it a lot, I´d wager that this might be the final version, as it sees generally liked.

So I´d still improve on the design instead of doing knee jerk fixes. That is what got us the 2014 ranger...

They aren't going to kill the monk class. Worst case scenario they decide to change nothing and leave us with the 2014 Monk. So, if that is what you are worried about, it isn't going to happen.

As for "knee-jerk" fixes... my man, people have been iterating on some of these monk fixes for YEARS. These aren't knee-jerk "we've never considered the monk design before" reactions. Many of us have spent a long time hoping that this monk would be an improvement over the original version... and it isn't. By basically all metrics they nerfed the class as a whole.

 

[Mephista]

So, they are introducing the "Warrior" group. Great! And they are getting rid of the "Way of ..." subclass. Okay. So of all the words in the English language they could possibly use, why would they choose the exact same term they are using for their newly created CLASS GROUPING to refer to a SUBCLASS GROUPING.

I think they're getting rid of groups. Wildshape is no longer Channel Nature, Weapon Mastery is going to everyone and their brothers, feats no longer bound by Group...

So, while I think the change from Way to Warrior is stupid, I don't think its going to have any confusion with Warrior group.

 

[Clint_L]

So, I'm currently playing a Mercy monk, and as I previously mentioned, I think this subclass shows that someone at WotC gets monk, because Mercy seems intentionally designed to mitigate the class's mechanical weaknesses:

1. being resource starved
2. being overly reliant on bonus actions
3. having little to offer the party
4. having too few choices to make (aka stunning strike or bust)

Level Three
Hand of Mercy/Hand of Harm
Mercy's signature abilities are introduced right away, and crucially, there are two of them, so that players immediately have choices. Both work off Flurry of Blows or the unarmed strike, so there is no extra demand placed on the bonus action. Hand of healing costs no extra resources and can be used to either heal the monk or an ally, making the class more tanky without sacrificing as much offence as Patient Defence, and providing group utility - it is super fun punching someone else's character back into consciousness! There is additional offence (hand of harm) allowing you to mini-nova by combining this with FoB if you want to spend 2 ki.

Right away, Mercy monk has more multiple choices each round (while ki lasts): tank better, hit harder, or heal a buddy.

Level Six
Physician's Touch
This is where the Mercy monk really begins to shine, because it feels like the monk as you imagined it: you can attack and defend effectively, both at the same time (what a concept!). Additional features are stacked onto Hand of Mercy/Harm, so there is no extra resource cost. Including the ability to automatically give a target the poisoned condition via hand of harm (all their attacks are at disadvantage). With no saving throw. If you are tanking a BBEG, this is like getting to have Patient Defence without sacrificing any offence, except that it also protects the rest of your party. There are limitations - sucks if you are fighting a vampire or something - but that's fair.

Plus you can now punch blindness, deafness, poison, disease, paralyzation or even being stunned out of an ally. So...suddenly Stunning Strike isn't your automatic option. It's still a good option (and you could even stack it in there if you really want to blow through ki), but it feels great to have more than one choice to make.

Level Eleven
Flurry of Healing and Harm
You can now do two heals instead of one, if you like, and both Healing and Harm no longer cost ki. It's okay...what's with WotC always wanting to address the monk's resource scarcity at high levels when it is no longer much of a problem?

Level Seventeen
Hand of Ultimate Mercy
You can now punch your ally back to life, within 24 hours, along with 4d10+Wis HP, and freed of any of the conditions listed above. Like Raise Dead only way, way better - you could viably do this in the middle of battle, and it ain't gonna cost you 500 gold. I don't know if I'll play this character long enough to get to do this, but I really, really hope so.

What makes this subclass so great is that by level three all the pieces are in place, and by level six you have everything you really need. It's still resource dependent, but when burning through resources you feel like a superhero, rather than just adequate. Whoever designed Mercy understood the monk's limitations, and compensated brilliantly.

That person should be asked to lead the revision of the current UA monk.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

We have to make sure we compare like to like however. Unless the simple weapons get a major overhaul, we know what masteries are on the table. And all of them have a stronger weapon available that does the same thing, but are usable by martials.

Now, sure, Rogues being able to drop a d6 for prone is comparable... but what about dropping a d6 for persistent disadvantage on enemy attacks? Sap is disadvantage on a single attack, so those two abilities aren't really that close. And, we cannot forget, even with sacrificing the dice, the Rogue does more damage than the monk by higher levels. The only ability that would cause a rogue to deal LESS damage than a monk is Knockout. Which is a very powerful ability as is. Pretty much anything else they use gives them an effect AND more damage than the monk.



They aren't going to kill the monk class. Worst case scenario they decide to change nothing and leave us with the 2014 Monk. So, if that is what you are worried about, it isn't going to happen.

As for "knee-jerk" fixes... my man, people have been iterating on some of these monk fixes for YEARS. These aren't knee-jerk "we've never considered the monk design before" reactions. Many of us have spent a long time hoping that this monk would be an improvement over the original version... and it isn't. By basically all metrics they nerfed the class as a whole.

See. I don't disagree here. I also want solid fixes and I see that the monk is not there yet.
I want to see the next iteration and we have the chance to give feedback.
I will use that option.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I personally don't like the mental picture of a great-axe wielding, first level monk.

Why not? Either way, monks certainly should be able to use polearms, and ya know…the good swords.

Also just imagine the greataxe as a monk’s spade or something.

While I want the base monk to rely on Simple Weapons,

But…why!? What possible fiction or vision is being served by that?

 

[Clint_L]

Chaosmancer alluded to this, but I just watched the Deep Dive into the UA Rogue, and at about the 45 minute mark when comparing damage from the updated classes, he brings up the monk. It's terrible - at level 13 even when using Flurry of Blows the monk is doing less than half the damage of a berserker barbarian, and about 60% of the damage of a fighter or rogue:


He also explains why weapon masteries are currently useless to the monk; I know a few people in this thread have suggested the opposite, so here's the math if you want to review it.

Long story short: the UA monk is in dire straits and we need to make that clear to WotC when the survey comes out. The good news is that the first version of rogue was widely panned, and this latest one is massively improved, often specifically addressing complaints and suggestions from the community. So there is hope!

 

[Horwath]

Question:

Is one of the solutions for the monk to just give them additional Ability Score adjustments.
Like at levels 6 and 16, a monk just get +2 Wisdom and can have Wisdom 22/24?

Just like how a Barbarian can bypass the humanoid limits of Strength and Constition naturally,amonk can bypass humaniod Dexterity and Wisdom.
This frees up a ASI to boost CON or focus harder on DEX/WIS or take another direction.

Maybe monk needs more ASIs, as it's a MAD class,
but last thing this game needs is more ability score inflation.

I would do the opposite and limit scores to 18.
Barbarian capstone reduced from +4 STR, +4 CON to +2 STR, DEX and CON with max of 20. And some other bonus to compensate.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Why not? Either way, monks certainly should be able to use polearms, and ya know…the good swords.

Also just imagine the greataxe as a monk’s spade or something.

But…why!? What possible fiction or vision is being served by that?

The fiction that currently exists that you don't like. The one that feels like a monk.

If all monks can use two-handed heavy weapons using their Dexterity modifier, that is what they are going to use. I don't want all monks to work that way. Starting at low levels, they will be using Greatweapons for larger damage dice, because they can. Why wouldn't they? That is what all monks would look like.