PCs with too many scrolls?

[Voadam]

In one of the last campaigns I ran, the mid-level spellcasters spent so much of their cash and time making endless scrolls, to the point where it seemed pretty pointless for them to memorize spells.

Any practical ideas on how to handle this as a DM (besides throwing fire based monsters at them more than usual)?

My advice is don't sweat it. These are mostly low level non attack utility type spells. They cost money and xp to make and are gone when used. They allow a little more time to be spent actively adventuring before breaking for the day and a few extra resources to fall back on when things go bad.

True power is in the highest level spells and those are correspondingly expensive so it is a self correcting power issue IMO.

 

[Starbuck_II]

For some time, I've felt that there needs to be a hard (and fairly low) limit on total magic items carried. In my "d20 Diminutive" campaign I limit a character to carrying 5 magic items before something possibly stops working or gets cursed. One scroll can have up to 6 spells scribed on it, so choose wisely.

P.S. The way to increase scroll DCs is to use "Heighten Spell" to increase the level, and hence the DC (along with minimum ability score).

You do know that scrolls actually can fit unlimited number of spells on them? They just get longer per extra added.

 

[Felix]

I was thinking that one consequence of a party with 2-3 spellcasters making dozens of scrolls would be ... suppliers decide to raise the price from 50gp a vial [of scribing ink] to 500 gp.

I very much recommend against this. Remember that wizard is the most expensive profession in the game. Except for the starting spells at 1st level, and the 2 free spells each level gained, it costs 100gp per spell level to enter a spell into your spellbook.

Want a new 3rd level spell so you can start scribing scolls of it?

Buy a scroll (375gp)
Scribe it into your spellbook (300gp)
Scribe that scroll! (188gp + 15xp)

In order to add a spell to your book so you can scribe it once costs you 863gp. That's money you're not spending on anything else, while the fighter is working towards a better sword, the cleric nearly has a cloak of resistance +1, the rogue can buy vials of poison, etc. Jack the price of scroll components by a factor of 10, and there's no point, or profitability to studying wizardry.

This is, of course, if you're enforcing the wizard scribing costs. They may have money for all those scrolls because they're not deducting the cost of putting spells in their spellbook.

The retort is that a Boccob's Blessed Book removes that burden of 100gp per spell level. Which costs 12500gp, so you simply put a down payment on 125 spell levels scribed and can scribe for free after that. No low to mid level wizard is going to have the liquid capital for a BBB unless they either find one, or they come upon a hoard of gold; they'll be bleeding their capital developing their spellbook. Any gold they save is gold not being used to increase their spell versatility, which is a wizard's strength.

 

[sukael]

Since the treasure tables never give a scroll with more than 6 spells, I assume that's the maximum number that can be put on a scroll. Furthermore, I limit PCs to 3 spells per scroll until 7th level, then 4 spells per scroll until 14th level.

That helps a lot, because in a single day they can't create a scroll with 40 1st-level spells.

You can put as many "scrolls" as you like on a suitable physical surface... but that doesn't keep each one from taking the full crafting time. Each "scroll" is going to take at least one day to make.

Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

The reason why the DMG scroll tables don't go past 6 spells per scroll is that a sorcerer's spells per day of a given level doesn't go past 6, barring ability score adjustments. Maybe it's those un-exceptional people that are making those scrolls for sale, rather than for personal use, since they are just average people, not adventurers.

If you're confused, I'll add this:

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

That is why they don't go over 6 spells. while you have the option to use other level slots to prep or cast a spell more than 6 times per day, that isn't the standard.

 

[Runestar]

That is why they don't go over 6 spells. while you have the option to use other level slots to prep or cast a spell more than 6 times per day, that isn't the standard.

You could have multiple spellcasters contributing spells to be cast. For example, I could have 20 clerics each providing 2 castings of CLW for the wizard, to create a scroll with 40 castings of said spell.

Unfurling such a scroll to read it may be an issue though. Maybe they should create a PDA version of a scroll...You can instantly select and access whatever scroll you want, and cast it without any fuss.

That said, I do love scrolls. Until complete champion (and the wizard variant letting you cast any divination spell spontaneously), they are pretty much the only way extremely situational spells like tongues, see invis and legend lore saw use, since it was way too inefficient to waste normal spell slots on preparing them.

 

[Adlon]

renfield writes:

part of the problem I have with it is that it slows down the game...even the player that was most organized, with a huge spread sheet with all her spells on scrolls would take forever in combat situations figuring out which spells to use; the other spellcasters were even less organized. This often led to frustration with the combat-tanks who were up front smashing and bashing. A problem with the flow of the game created by the players.

Also, I had a creeping feeling that it a problem with real world versimillitude. Would the highly intelligent mage with high dexterity necessarily always be able to fish out among the hundred or so scrolls the right one as quick as a free action? If a character has less than 10 scrolls, I don't see a problem. Seems to me an increasing DC of one point for every 5-10 extra scrolls you have would be in order.

But also, there's the idea I had about the effects that a character having such a large number of magic items would have. Even if one doesn't run a Ley Line oriented magical campaign, a character with a 100 scrolls (and other magic items besides) would strongly radiate magic. If she or he has a few buddies with 100scrolls and other magic items, then you're talking about quite a magic power nexus there.

Simple.
Rarity of components.
You have Inks, paper types, pen/quill types.
Not every vendor has uber stock. One vendor might only have a half dozen pieces of parchment left.

Loss:
Ok, PC's buy bottles of Ink. These break in falls., as do plumes, and other components that are fragile.
Paper burns. Even if on a finished scroll, paper burns. I'd change personal item saves if a guy is a walking pile of kindling. Save for EACH scroll.

MMmmoisture. Crossing any streams? falling off a boat lately?


Example:
Roll up 100 8.5 x 11 pieces of paper into scroll shapes. Considering SOME care so they don't get mangled...HOW are these transported? On an arm band? Belt? Robe lining? As a DM, I wanna know. If non-magically transported, then this guy looks like a cloaked, bulky-for-a-reason individual, lets check him out.

Time:
It takes time to make scrolls. Not every night in the Inn needs be uneventful.


Look at a statblock / lootlist from just about any setting's uber mover and shaker mages/casters. They may in most cases have up to a total of a half dozen scrolls on them.


Reality:
Even 25 scrolls is alot to carry on one's person all at once.

Don't tell your group that you're vexed by too many scrolls. Take them to a new town, a small one, yet one that as alot of gate security. Perhaps an outpost town suffering from recent attack/incursion, and is at heightened alert. One where the PC's wouldn't even THINK of doing something stupid, but, where they are not known.

At the city gates when the guards want to know WHY this guy is all bulked up, get a look at the Matrix, when Neo opens his cloak. Whoa......you planning on nuking this town to ash? Come with us.

This town has no local mage, and the guards can't tell a scroll from a love letter as for whats on them.....to be safe, the guards bind said caster properly, and put him in a cell. They have to send for a mage in the next town, as theirs was killed last week.....

So, first thing in the morning.....of course, that mage can't possibly drop what he's doing immediately, he should be there in what.. 3-5 days? After all, a Mage is never late, he gets there exactly when he wants to.

As for slowing down combat:
LONG ago, I had people just SO indecisive, I had to do something, and this was back in 2e, where combat did flow fast....

I started an initiative countdown. Took my group one session to adjust, and I've never relented on it. It did wonders to my 3.5 combat also....

New turn:
Get everyone's action ahead of time.
Usually standard fare.

BUT, when you ask each player, mentally begin a countdown from 10 to 0. At zero, the PC is too confused, out of Line of Sight, or digging through too many damn scrolls to have an action other than full move that round.

The player sitting there staring at a character sheet for 5 minutes hoping for an action to spring forth drove me nuts. This makes weaker players crack the damn books, IF they wanna continue playing, and actually contribute to combat. (issues with weaker players go hand in hand with off-screen coaching by other players and the DM hopefully)

As to the question of can a mage call forth the right scroll at the right time when dealing with so many scrolls?

No way. Not unless serious and expensive magic and gold were spent.

If a PC is carrying all those scrolls, is suddenly in combat, and starts noodling through all said scrolls, wouldn't it SUCK to have all of those scrolls fall onto the ground? Dex check? Now, does he run after the scrolls getting kicked around / wind blown, or does he continue to tool around with his scrolls.

Die % chance to find the right scroll THIS round?

Lotta ways to control this....

I too love scrolls, and have had groups where scroll creation wasnt a popular thing, other groups where they wanted to start a scroll shop.

I much prefer that my group makes scrolls. I just don't every want this scenario in my game, and I saw it coming. I was originally allowed to do it by an inexperienced DM, and saw the chaos I could have caused with a boatload of scrolls at my disposal.

My rule of thumb on ANY item the PC's can carry on them, from rope to the Staff of Megadeath: Ok, the PC's have the item. Now, create 20 ways to take it away. Though taking it away may never be in your plans, by doing this routinely, you will become VERY adept at correcting mistakes.

 

[Phlebas]

My wizard character is always desperate for down time and cash to make more scrolls - never have enough of either to have enough high level spells, but i have quite a selection of the smaller utility spells

Finding them isn't a problem - hewards handy scrollcase - sorry haversack - is good for that.

As for in-game time to find the right spell - our DM's have a 30 second rule (or shorter) where you 'delay' your action if you're still looking up stuff when it gets to your go.
(It does 'feel' right as well to have the action heroes pile in swinging, while the spell caster drops back, asseses the situation and pulls out the right spell for maximum impact! - well occasionally the right spell and normally with the fighters screaming for support)

 

[S'mon]

For me the main problem is that making a 1st level scroll is only 12.5gp and 1 XP, no reason not to make a huge number. I solved it by adding +100gp paper cost to the cost of every scroll.

Edit: 1 spell per scroll, of course.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

You could have multiple spellcasters contributing spells to be cast. For example, I could have 20 clerics each providing 2 castings of CLW for the wizard, to create a scroll with 40 castings of said spell.

that is also an option, but not the standard. I've had DMs that think only stuff written in the item lists can be made, even though there are pages of rules explaining how to make new and/or custom items. Then, usually later on, they have NPCs with one-shot custom items that give them staying power in combat.

I read some novel that had mages with PCs, personal crystals, which held spells, among other things, sort of like a PDA with computer software. Interesting idea, but haven't had the type of campaign yet where that sort of thing would be appropriate.

...

Going out of your way to come up with ways to destroy items the PCs spent time, money and XP to create is not a solution. It just makes things look like PCs vs the DM, then less fun is had by all.

For me the main problem is that making a 1st level scroll is only 12.5gp and 1 XP, no reason not to make a huge number. I solved it by adding +100gp paper cost to the cost of every scroll.

Edit: 1 spell per scroll, of course.

what if they use something cheaper than paper? or standard paper which is 2g? I bet the elves are pissed that loggers are clear-cutting their forests for that remarkably profitable commodity.