Onyx Dog vs. Bag of Tricks, Gray

[fissionessence]

I was just looking over these two magic items to get a general idea of what summoned creatures/animal companions will look like . . . but they just seem to be of a completely different power level from each other! Am I missing something?

(for reference: Onyx Dog, Bag of Tricks)

Pros for Onyx Dog:
· It's only level 4, making it much cheaper and more available.
· You don't have to spend a healing surge to summon the dog.
· You have the option of spending a healing surge to give it bonus hit points.
· The summoned creature is not a minion; it actually has hit points.
· The summoned creature has an extra power.
· It lasts for 8 hours.
Cons:
· Not as good attack bonus or defenses compared to the bag of tricks (obviously, though; it's 4 levels lower).
· You're always stuck with the same creature (I don't know if this should even count . . . )

Pros for Bag of Tricks:
· Higher attack bonus and defenses (once again, this is because it's 4 levels higher).
· You have the versatility and potential of 8 different creatures?
Cons:
· You never know what you're going to get.
· You have to spend a healing surge to summon it (and you don't get any other benefit for doing so).
· It only lasts for 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter.

The onyx dog seems clearly better. So seriously . . . what's the big idea? They both use the same action resource mechanic where you have to spend a minor action to give it any action, so there's no leverage on either one there. The bag of tricks creatures are tiny, so maybe they can be used for spying, although the info doesn't say anything about a range or being able to share perception or anything like that.

~ fissionessence

 

[DracoSuave]

Different magic items are different?

Also, the Onyx Dog only has the stats of a Level 1 creature, and not a very good one at that, in comparison to a Level 8 minion that does little damage, but has an additional effect with its attacks (the real reason behind its value)

 

[1of3]

I thought about that myself. No idea.

On a side note, the stat block for the Bag of Tricks says "Power (DAILY, Conjuration)". Shouldn't it say "Power (HEALING SURGE, Conjuration)" according to PHB 226?

 

[sukael]

I thought about that myself. No idea.

On a side note, the stat block for the Bag of Tricks says "Power (DAILY, Conjuration)". Shouldn't it say "Power (HEALING SURGE, Conjuration)" according to PHB 226?

No. A power that lists "Healing Surge" lets you get extra uses by spending surges. This is quite different from a daily power that requires you to spend a healing surge.

 

[fissionessence]

Different magic items are different?

Also, the Onyx Dog only has the stats of a Level 1 creature, and not a very good one at that, in comparison to a Level 8 minion that does little damage, but has an additional effect with its attacks (the real reason behind its value)

I guess, but the ability for the conjured creature to take more than one hit, with the option for even more hit points by spending an optional healing surge just seems better. Plus, its minimum damage is equal to the bag of tricks creature's damage, and the added power seems about as good as any of the bag of tricks powers, plus you don't have to worry about 'which one am I going to get?'

The real main factor for me, though, is the 8 hours vs 5 minutes.

~

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

What if the Bag of Tricks's power was an Encounter power instead of Daily? Having to spend Healing Surges to use it would still tie it to a Daily resource and prevent it from being used too often... *shrugs*

Also, don't forget that the Onyx Dog can't make Opportunity attacks, but the Bag of Tricks creatures can...

 

[fissionessence]

Also, don't forget that the Onyx Dog can't make Opportunity attacks, but the Bag of Tricks creatures can...

True, but as tiny creature, bag of tricks conjurations have to enter an opponent's square in order to attack, thus provoking opportunity attacks. Only then could the tiny creature then take advantage of its ability to make opportunity attacks of its own. The weasel's special ability makes it an exception to this OA penalty.

~

 

[DracoSuave]

I dunno what the problem is. One conjures a creature for combat use, and the other conjures a creature that has uses other than 'spend minor action to do small damage.' Tinyness is a disadvantage in straight up combat, but against certain monsters, spending a healing surge to suck up an OA that -would- have gone in your own face is a good deal... and if the OA misses and the critter gets some damage in, good deal. Plus there's other advantages of Tiny that aren't immediately apparent, but can be useful in many circumstances in and out of combat. It's not a bug, it's a feature.


What I find amusing is the text describing figurines of power as not having basic attacks and yet, there in the stat-block for the onyx dog, is a basic attack.

 

[Syrsuro]

The 'problem' is simply that the significantly less useful one costs significantly more to buy.

Obviously, a wizard did it.

Carl