D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Chaosmancer]

personally i feel like 'mundane' is better used as a descriptor for the nature of a kind of action rather than a...scope or grade of them, even if your 20th level fighter is reducing a castle wall into fine rubble with a single punch, well, a punch is still a punch, it's a mundane action, albeit an extraordinary example of a mundane action, that 20th level fighter is still just doing mundane actions and is therefore still classified as 'mundane' themselves(barring deviations of individual subclasses), it's exaggerated well past what would be possible in the real world but it's a logical extension of everyday actions and what would be possible if you removed the 'skill cap'/physical limitations of the real world

I (obviously) tend to disagree. If you told me you were telling a mundane story, then the protagonist threw a punch (mundane action) that shattered a hole in space-time that they then reached through and dragged (mundane action) their grandfather into the present day... that isn't mundane. Sure, punching is mundane and grabbing someone and dragging them is mundane, but punching and moving them through time is not mundane.

Or, to take another example, running is a mundane action. The Flash capable at running faster than concepts, is not a mundane character. All he is doing is, technically, the mundane action of moving, but when you can move faster than the concept of death itself... you are doing something beyond the mundane.

I think your extension comes from the idea that there are "supernatural" things which have no actual real-world mundane action equivalents. But I have a hard time with that assertion, because the sheer number of fantasy stories I've read have shown me many types of "magic as physics" types of situations, and so there are very very few things I would say could not be equated to mundane actions if the cap was non-existent. It is much more useful for me to look towards whether or not the scope or degree of the action is mundane. Throwing a punch that breaks a normal man's nose? Mundane. Throwing a punch that leaves a perfect imprint of your fist in a steel plate? Likely not, but maybe. Throwing a punch that catches the air on fire and sends a flaming lion's head blasting into a man and throwing him off his feet? Supernatural/Extraordinary/Not Mundane.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, does the PHB need to explicitly state that at levels 1-4 rogues and fighters (but not barbarians or monks) are explicitly mundane. And further, that at level 5 (no earlier, no later) rogues and fighters become extraordinary. Also, some subclasses are magical (not extraordinary, at level 3) such as arcane tricksters and eldritch knights.

I can see the issues here. Personally, I wish we didn't have to call it out, but if we don't call out that every class goes beyond human limits at some point, we seem like we are going to be stuck in a rut.

At level 5, I’m not clear what happens: does the arcane trickster become extraordinary, or does it remain magical?

I don't, personally, see a lot of difference between Extraordinary, Magical, or Supernatural in a fantasy setting. The only reason it ends up mattering is because we have this silly concept of counterspell and anti-magic which make things far more complicated than they should be. However, this is fixed by making these things work for SPELLS, or getting rid of anti-magic entirely.

Is the arcane trickster’s Evasion ability different from the thief’s?

Probably. I'd describe it differently at least.

If the arcane trickster’s Evasion ability is magical, why can’t wizards and sorcerers access it?

Why can't the Wizard or Sorcerer give off a paladin Aura? Why can't they summon a barbarian rage that pulls the spirits of their ancestors to fight beside them? Why can my wizard cast Wall of Force but my sorcerer can't? Why can my bard cast vicious mockery, but neither the wizard or sorcerer can? Why can't they regenerate, use a soul draining kiss, step through shadows, self-resurrect, or any number of things

shrug They can't do every single magical thing in the world.

 

[James Gasik]

Or the Wizard creates a spell or magic item to get whatever magical effect they want.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I (obviously) tend to disagree. If you told me you were telling a mundane story, then the protagonist threw a punch (mundane action) that shattered a hole in space-time that they then reached through and dragged (mundane action) their grandfather into the present day... that isn't mundane. Sure, punching is mundane and grabbing someone and dragging them is mundane, but punching and moving them through time is not mundane.

Or, to take another example, running is a mundane action. The Flash capable at running faster than concepts, is not a mundane character. All he is doing is, technically, the mundane action of moving, but when you can move faster than the concept of death itself... you are doing something beyond the mundane.

I think your extension comes from the idea that there are "supernatural" things which have no actual real-world mundane action equivalents. But I have a hard time with that assertion, because the sheer number of fantasy stories I've read have shown me many types of "magic as physics" types of situations, and so there are very very few things I would say could not be equated to mundane actions if the cap was non-existent. It is much more useful for me to look towards whether or not the scope or degree of the action is mundane. Throwing a punch that breaks a normal man's nose? Mundane. Throwing a punch that leaves a perfect imprint of your fist in a steel plate? Likely not, but maybe. Throwing a punch that catches the air on fire and sends a flaming lion's head blasting into a man and throwing him off his feet? Supernatural/Extraordinary/Not Mundane.

you're correct in what you state, but i also feel like most of the examples you give here aren't all 'just' logical extentions of the base action, breaking through spacetime contains a jump in concept wherein the punch somehow starts interacting with intangible concepts rather than just 'hits things harder', magic has entered the equation there even if not being directly acknowledged, the flash running faster than death itself implies that death has a speed...

edit: and i acknowledge this may just be me drawing an arbritrary line, but i still feel that certain effects aren't 'logical consequences' of the original action.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't know if I explained this or if I did so a bunch of times but.

Here's the problem with mundane

High level Mundane characters are not fun.

But but but..

No. In real life. High level Mundane characters are not fun.

High level Mundanes Auto Succeed.

"I am the Archimage Heroidus!"
Slice!
DEAD

"Tremble before Pit Lord Jermo-"
Arrow!
DEAD

"Behold the Ancient Dragon Garg-"
Jump. Somersault. Smash!
DEAD

High level martials in myth and fantasy would be poor gameplay experiences. They'd be like Jedi. Barring a major physical obstacle, master Force Users can only be stopped by other force users and a select few nonforce users.

So D&D and D&D clones either

• Stops the game at level 10
• Changes the rules to create a new mundanity
• Explicitly place mundanity in the real of magic items

The whole Mundane character argument is one of whether we use true Mundane rules or adopt other more gamist or narrative Mundane rules and which ones.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't know if I explained this or if I did so a bunch of times but.

Here's the problem with mundane

High level Mundane characters are not fun.

But but but..

No. In real life. High level Mundane characters are not fun.

High level Mundanes Auto Succeed.

"I am the Archimage Heroidus!"
Slice!
DEAD

"Tremble before Pit Lord Jermo-"
Arrow!
DEAD

"Behold the Ancient Dragon Garg-"
Jump. Somersault. Smash!
DEAD

High level martials in myth and fantasy would be poor gameplay experiences. They'd be like Jedi. Barring a major physical obstacle, master Force Users can only be stopped by other force users and a select few nonforce users.

So D&D and D&D clones either

• Stops the game at level 10
• Changes the rules to create a new mundanity
• Explicitly place mundanity in the real of magic items

The whole Mundane character argument is one of whether we use true Mundane rules or adopt other more gamist or narrative Mundane rules and which ones.

Indeed. Stopping most direct personal power advancement at or around level 10 has considerable benefit.

 

[TwoSix]

Indeed. Stopping most direct personal power advancement at or around level 10 has considerable benefit.

Cap hit point gain at level 10, and spells at 5th level (or even lower). Let power growth comes from items and story rewards rather than metagame options.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Cap hit point gain at level 10, and spells at 5th level (or even lower). Let power growth comes from items and story rewards rather than metagame options.

Sure. Let magic beyond 5th level be story-based ritual stuff you have to work in game to find and cast. Same for the NPCs with a similar fictional position. I could get behind that.

 

[TwoSix]

Sure. Let magic beyond 5th level be story-based ritual stuff you have to work in game to find and cast. Same for the NPCs with a similar fictional position. I could get behind that.

"Less player metagame authority over character growth, more diegetic and story progression" has been my personal hobbyhorse for years, but has about as much traction as an ice road trucker.

 

[Chaosmancer]

you're correct in what you state, but i also feel like most of the examples you give here aren't all 'just' logical extentions of the base action, breaking through spacetime contains a jump in concept wherein the punch somehow starts interacting with intangible concepts rather than just 'hits things harder', magic has entered the equation there even if not being directly acknowledged, the flash running faster than death itself implies that death has a speed...

edit: and i acknowledge this may just be me drawing an arbritrary line, but i still feel that certain effects aren't 'logical consequences' of the original action.

I think it is a bit arbitrary. After all, punching through time CAN be explained with physics. Plenty of science fiction media uses the idea of wormholes/blackholes to create time-travel stories.

I do get your point, eventually you do break past a "reasonable" limit of logical consequences, but I feel you've long passed into supernatural/magical/extraordinary territory by that point.

I also think, in the end, me and you want the same thing. We want a guy to learn to punch good in a way that lets him do epic, crazy things. I'm just far more willing to humor people who are like "but physics doesn't allow for that!" with an explanation of how a world of magical physics doesn't work like our world. To me, I lose nothing by acknowledging how a fantasy world is physically different than the real world.