No More Massive Tomes of Rules

[Celebrim]

Apart from that: A lot of the hypothetical situations you mention above ... well, it honestly wouldn't cross my mind to spend a lot of thought on them....I don't even know if I could tell you the difference between a shotgun and a battle rifle from looking at them, though I have a vague idea that a shotgun can target multiple opponents at short range or something like that.

I feel that sums up your whole position nicely.

 

[Celebrim]

I just don't see how you arrive at the idea that using 100 pages of core rules and coming up with rulings based on the core resolution mechanism means a bigger mental load than using 1000 pages of core rules and knowing all the relevant procedures or looking them up.

Do you know what a b-tree search is?

Because it's pretty obvious to me how you would keep subsystems from taking up mental space until they were needed. The idea that there exists a supplement that lists a bunch of monsters, or a supplement that is a mass combat extension of the rules, or a supplement that is nothing more than a giant well described price list would somehow be this huge burden on you as a GM and would ruin your fun strikes me as both bizarre and short sighted.

 

[Emberashh]

Do you know what a b-tree search is?

Because it's pretty obvious to me how you would keep subsystems from taking up mental space until they were needed. The idea that there exists a supplement that lists a bunch of monsters, or a supplement that is a mass combat extension of the rules, or a supplement that is nothing more than a giant well described price list would somehow be this huge burden on you as a GM and would ruin your fun strikes me as both bizarre and short sighted.

I don't think its a coincidence that I think its going to be a brilliant idea to explicitly label in my games table of contents with what you actually have to read to play and what you can skip reading until you actually need it or just want to.

For whatever reason a lot of people see a big book and think you have to learn it cover to cover just to play.

 

[Swanosaurus]

Because it's pretty obvious to me how you would keep subsystems from taking up mental space until they were needed. The idea that there exists a supplement that lists a bunch of monsters, or a supplement that is a mass combat extension of the rules, or a supplement that is nothing more than a giant well described price list would somehow be this huge burden on you as a GM and would ruin your fun strikes me as both bizarre and short sighted.

Well, as soon as a subsystem is needed, I'll have to look it up, read and understand it - at least if I want to use it. Either I have to do it preparing a session (investing my time), or, if I didn't know it would come up, I would have to halt the session to read up on it.
To me, this seems like a much bigger burden than just using the core system that I already know.

 

[Emberashh]

Well, as soon as a subsystem is needed, I'll have to look it up, read and understand it - at least if I want to use it. Either I have to do it preparing a session (investing my time), or, if I didn't know it would come up, I would have to halt the session to read up on it.
To me, this seems like a much bigger burden than just using the core system that I already know.

Thats where having solid procedures is a benefit. Just follow the procedure and don't over think it.

 

[Swanosaurus]

Thats where having solid procedures is a benefit. Just follow the procedure and don't over think it.

I'm actually really bad at that. I'm fine with winging something by using a simplistic solution; but I hate following a more complex procedure not really knowing if I actually understand what I'm doing. (That's why doing my tax declaration is such a nightmare to me.)

 

[Celebrim]

For whatever reason a lot of people see a big book and think you have to learn it cover to cover just to play.

It's sort of like claiming you have to memorize three monster manuals before you can play D&D, or that it's a greater mental burden to look up the stats of a Bulette in a book than it is to run one by fiat with no recourse to rules.

 

[hawkeyefan]

No, you actually haven't. One poster tried that by citing Traveller and AD&D as examples and when I addressed that argument with facts they returned to their ad hominem attacks and red herrings.

I am not using red herrings or ad hominem attacks. I am citing the many RPGs that function and are not 1,000 pages. They exist as evidence that your claim is incorrect.

Again, you may prefer that they have more rules, but you have not established... nor can you... that they need more rules.

Yes, I've never liked anyone else's manners in this thread from the beginning either, but I really didn't make that the core of my argument for my preferences either.

I don't know if I'd describe it as the core of anyone's argument... the core would seem to be that you're arguing your subjective view as if it is objective fact. The manners thing seems more an observation many have made about your general demeanor during the discussion. Namely, that it stinks.

 

[Swanosaurus]

It's sort of like claiming you have to memorize three monster manuals before you can play D&D, or that it's a greater mental burden to look up the stats of a Bullette in a book than it is to run one by fiat with no recourse to rules.

There's a difference between encyclopedic elements and rules procedures that is important. The stats for a bulette are a set of numbers I feed into a system that I already know and have understood. A sub-system is something that I have to learn and understand to use it.

 

[TiQuinn]

After sitting down and reading through the Dragonbane rulebook last night, I have realized that I just don't want to pour through 1000 pages of rules to run/play D&D anymore. Therer is no reason that 5E (or any other edition for that matter) can't be presented in a concise, complete, robust form like Dragonbane.

Do you like games in "long form" -- by that I mean the multiple rulebook, dense prose form common in the industry and exemplified by D&D and Pathfinder? Do you prefer a singular book but of the same form, like we usually get from Free League and Modiphius? Or do you like short and concise books?

I think Shadowdark is a nice compromise for me: the rulebook is 300 pages, but also A5 sized, and much of it is inspirational tables. The actual rules could easily fit in 100 pages.

I may revive a project I was working on during the pandemic: 5E in 100 pages. Not a deeply cut "basic" version in 100 pages, but an honest to goodness full version of 5E from the SRD in 100 pages.

I like the OSE style of multiple smaller books each dealing with a different topic. I’m tired of verbose, overly precise writing that tries to be lawyerly but ultimately is unclear.