-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
No More Massive Tomes of Rules
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Li Shenron
Legend
I would certainly prefer concise books, or at the very least a better organization of the material.
For example, there is common rules of the game, and there is character material, which is also technically "rules" (every spell has its own) but you don't need to know them unless your character has that option. Similary, monsters have their rules, but the DM only needs them when they choose to use that specific monster.
One thing that certainly makes the D&D core books heavy, is that they have a lot of character, monster and magic items material already in core. The "common rules" could very well fit in much less than 100 pages, maybe 10 or so. I think Mike Mearls said 10+ years ago that he was looking with pride at 5e draft combat rules taking 2 pages.
payn
He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Index placement is a big one too. My battletech sources drive me nuts. They place a dozen or more game sheets after the index.
My spiffy idea for Labyrinthian is to take the table of contents and just label it with what to read to jump in, what to read as you need to, and what to read at your leisure. Ie, read pages 5-15, then don't touch the rest of the book unless you need tk or want to.
Precisely because I think people get too hung up on the idea that they need to read an entire book just to play, and that has never really been true, and especially not in something like DND where even the DMG is mostly just Content and not anything you strictly need to run or play the game.
Precisely because I think people get too hung up on the idea that they need to read an entire book just to play, and that has never really been true, and especially not in something like DND where even the DMG is mostly just Content and not anything you strictly need to run or play the game.
Most of that stuff is excessively overwritten, using far too many words to convey the game element.
Wofano Wotanto
Hero
There seem to be two distinct elements to this.
On the one hand, the physical size of the book(s) causes real-world issues with transport, storage, and to some degree cost, and the more books you need at the table the worse all of that gets. A full-sized 400+ page volume isn't even all that convenient to read, and takes more effort to consult for any specific rule even with the best index. There's also a real question about whether stuffing everything in a single complete volume is better or worse than splitting into multiple books that are primarily GM- or player-focused - and that goes beyond style preferences into economics, which can in turn impact the success of a system in the long run.
On the other hand, having a huge page count makes a system harder to master at even a basic level, and it's a royal pain at the table if you need to refer to the rules regularly during play rather than (say) your character sheet or GM notes. That can be mitigated considerably if large chunks of the book get out of the way while playing, eg an extensive character generation system that you won't actually look at much past session 0, or lengthy sections on encounter design and session prep stuff the GM will distill down to a few notes for play. That kind of thing I'll give a pass too, especially if the core engine is very concise.
My ideal be something like M&M 3e with separate GM and player core books that have reasonable page counts but still manage to be quite comprehensive so supplements really are optional purchases. They're a little dense to read the first time through and would benefit from a slightly more streamlined system, but enough of the page count is invisible at the table it's within my tolerances. Ultimate Prowlers & Paragons might be an even better fit for me, but doesn't have quite the same level of versatility so the tighter engine is a tradeoff.
But I do make exceptions, like Sentinel Comics' 400+ page brute of a core book - but only because about 80% of that is stuff you'll never look at during play once your character is done, and the player-facing part of the game engine takes up a slim 40 pages even including art and examples. It's also got a pretty good index, which excuses many sins. Would I be happier if there was a separate "game engine" booklet for players? Yes, and that is one of the arguments in favor of buying the starter set - but the engine itself is easily learned and recalled, and your characters sheets do so much of the work for the book that using the core book isn't all that much of a strain. If you really needed 100+ pages of rules at the table the way (say) AD&D does I'd probably feel very different about that, but 40 I can accept.
On the one hand, the physical size of the book(s) causes real-world issues with transport, storage, and to some degree cost, and the more books you need at the table the worse all of that gets. A full-sized 400+ page volume isn't even all that convenient to read, and takes more effort to consult for any specific rule even with the best index. There's also a real question about whether stuffing everything in a single complete volume is better or worse than splitting into multiple books that are primarily GM- or player-focused - and that goes beyond style preferences into economics, which can in turn impact the success of a system in the long run.
On the other hand, having a huge page count makes a system harder to master at even a basic level, and it's a royal pain at the table if you need to refer to the rules regularly during play rather than (say) your character sheet or GM notes. That can be mitigated considerably if large chunks of the book get out of the way while playing, eg an extensive character generation system that you won't actually look at much past session 0, or lengthy sections on encounter design and session prep stuff the GM will distill down to a few notes for play. That kind of thing I'll give a pass too, especially if the core engine is very concise.
My ideal be something like M&M 3e with separate GM and player core books that have reasonable page counts but still manage to be quite comprehensive so supplements really are optional purchases. They're a little dense to read the first time through and would benefit from a slightly more streamlined system, but enough of the page count is invisible at the table it's within my tolerances. Ultimate Prowlers & Paragons might be an even better fit for me, but doesn't have quite the same level of versatility so the tighter engine is a tradeoff.
But I do make exceptions, like Sentinel Comics' 400+ page brute of a core book - but only because about 80% of that is stuff you'll never look at during play once your character is done, and the player-facing part of the game engine takes up a slim 40 pages even including art and examples. It's also got a pretty good index, which excuses many sins. Would I be happier if there was a separate "game engine" booklet for players? Yes, and that is one of the arguments in favor of buying the starter set - but the engine itself is easily learned and recalled, and your characters sheets do so much of the work for the book that using the core book isn't all that much of a strain. If you really needed 100+ pages of rules at the table the way (say) AD&D does I'd probably feel very different about that, but 40 I can accept.
GMMichael
Guide of Modos
It can. The 5RD neatly cuts 1000 pages down to, um, 403 pages.
I might like "long form" games if I were a teenager with nothing better to do than learn/memorize that much material. But as a non-teenager GM, I'm not about to memorize hundreds of pages of info, and it's hard to imagine a fantasy world while flipping through pages of real world books.
I can see that. The 5RD has a lot of fat to trim. Some of the already trimmed fat was classes and subclasses that I see D&D players craving, so it sounds like a difficult project.
I can tell you that that doesn't have to be the case. Rules-light can also be immersive play, creative PC actions, and customization. But yeah, probably less pleasure reading.
This is the part I would jettison. That's not to say it should read like stereo instruction, but that I don't want people curling up with it next to the fire. I want them playing it.
Wofano Wotanto
Hero
Depends on the publisher. Gallant Games Tiny d6 system couldn't be much lighter, but they've taken the space that might have been used on crunch and put it toward some pretty enjoyable fluff instead.
Similar Threads
