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OSR New OSR game free beta test ... MAGES & MONSTERS

Add/modify in the core rules:
- Under cleric: add Druid (variant cleric with "Druid Domain" spells and alternate skills and channel divinity).
- Under fighter: add Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger (variant fighters with different skills, and an ability tweak instead of the fighter's weapon skill)
- Under thief: add scout, rogue (variant thieves with skill changes)
0 Add hybrid classes (swordmage-style design): warpriest (fighter/cleric), enforcer (fighter/thief), minstrel (mage/thief) ... debating a cleric/thief option (monk? friar? mystic?) and bringing theurge forward from expanded rules for mage/cleric. These classes won't have new mechanics, just flavor and mix adjustments like the swordmage.

If i can keep helping :

- Druid : perfect. A quick suggestion : i always liked the 3.5 eberron feat that gives druids the capacity to repel/destroy aberrations. It seems flavorfull enough to me that the druid's channel divinity arm aberrations instead of undeads.
-Barbarian/Paladin : perfect (and i also prefer berserker to barbarian)
- Ranger : IMHO it's more profitable to just give the possibility for a fighter to trade x armor proficiency against y class skills (your call for the exact ratio) and to let the player choose the skills. It gives you a good ranger, you'll have no real need of the enforcer anymore and it can also emulate some other fighting archetypes (skald, noble duelist, etc.)
- Thief : still IMHO the base classe should be "the rogue" and all the 5 class skills should be player's choice. It gives you the thief, the scout but can also be usefull for a spy, an assassin-minstrel or things like that.

For the "pure" hybrids :
- From my point of view the base cleric is already a "warpriest". I agree with roadkill when he's saying that the real need is a "priest" (divine spellcaster without martial skills). If you really want a more martial focused divine spellcaster, the paladin should be the logic answer.
- I think the "enforcer" is already covered with my proposition for the "skilled variants" of the base fighter.
- Call the "mistrel" an Arcane Trikster (like the PC in 3.5), give the player the choice of the class skills and you can have a Bard, a Mage-Assassin, etc. (Same advice as for the thief, basically ^^). Same for the cleric/thief hybrid so you can have a divine bard (like the 3.5 UA bard variant), a monk, etc... An call it Divine Strider ;-P
- I never really liked the mix of divine and arcane spellcasters so i will prefer them to be advanced class, but it's just my personnal taste :)

Can't wait to read your work (and feel sorry to have already printed the beta :-( ) !
 
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I've assembled variants, and I'm working on the hybrids. Here is the variant text:

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Cleric variants:

Druid. The druid is a specialized nature cleric who belongs to the society of druids. Druids maintain groves across the Realm as places of worship, and both serve the needs of pastoral communities and protect and serve nature. The druid variant class operates as the cleric class with the following modifications:

• Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, Shields
• Skills: Religious Lore, Nature Lore, choose one additional skill; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• Orisons: The special druid orison shillelagh replaces magic weapon.
• Domain: Druids must select the Druid Domain as their domain choice
• Channel Divinity. Instead of Channel Divinity, druids Channel Nature. Instead of radiant or necrotic energy, the druid channels the green life force of nature, which will heal humanoids, plants, and animals within the burst radius, but damages monsters, undead, and extraplanar within the burst. This ability otherwise functions like the cleric Channel Divinity feature.
• Special: Druids speak Druidic, a language unique to their society

Priest. A priest is a cleric who has less training in martial abilities and instead focuses on spellcasting and the support of their followers and church. Priests are rarely adventurers, but may find themselves on a holy quest on behalf of their religious order and thus working in concert with a group of adventurers. The priest variant class operates as the cleric class with the following modifications:

• Armor Proficiency: None
• Additional domain: A priest has access to two domains, rather than one; spells of both domains are always prepared.
• Additional spell: A priest may cast one additional spell per level per day, for a total of (1 + spells as shown on “Cleric Spells Per Day” table + WIS bonus).

Fighter variants:

Barbarian. The barbarian is a warrior from a primitive culture, who trades armor protection – since primitive cultures have not developed the technology for complex heavy armors -- for increased physical hardiness in battle. The barbarian class functions as the fighter class with the following modifications:

• Hit Die: d10
• Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + CON Modifier
• Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, Shields
• Skill: Athletics, Nature Lore; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• The barbarian does not gain the fighter’s Weapon Skill ability, instead gaining the larger Hit Die and increased hit points.

Paladin. The Paladin is a champion of a faith and represents the ideal of a holy warrior, combining martial prowess with intense devotion to a faith. Paladins are great leaders, often found serving as the generals of armies fighting in holy causes. The paladin class functions as the fighter class with the following modifications:

• Skill: Athletics, Religious Lore; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• The paladin does not gain the fighter’s Weapon Skill ability at first level, instead gaining the cleric’s Channel Divinity (1d6) ability, which the paladin may use up to (1 + CHA bonus) times per day.

Ranger. The ranger is a wilderness warrior, operating on the boundaries of civilization to track down the enemies of civilization and prevent their raids on normal folk. Rangers often roam far afield to search out information and follow enemies. Dwarven rangers perform the same function, only in the underground realms. The ranger class functions as the fighter class with the following modifications:

• Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, Shields
• Skill: Perception, Stealth, Nature Lore or Dungeon Lore, choose one additional skill; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• The ranger does not gain the fighter’s Weapon Skill ability, gaining the Track ability. When using Track, the ranger adds +2 to any Nature Lore or Dungeon Lore checks used to track a creature.

Mage variants:

Wizard. The wizard is an even more studious and specialized mage, who trades some flexibility in spellcasting for increased spell ability. The wizard class functions as the mage class with the following modifications:

• The wizard’s spellcasting functions slightly differently than the mage. The wizard prepares and casts an additional spell of each spell level known per day – a total number of spells per level equal to 1 + (number of spells shown on “Mage Spells Per Day” table) + (INT bonus). However, the wizard may not cast these spells flexibly. Each prepared spell is cast once, and once cast that prepared slot is lost until the wizard rests for eight hours and can re-prepare spells. The wizard may prepare a spell multiple times, and at multiple spell levels, to allow multiple castings; each prepared spell may be cast exactly once.

Sorcerer. The sorcerer is a mage whose magical ability is innate rather than coming from a detailed study of the arcane arts. The sorcerer’s spells draw their power from the force of the sorcerer’s personality. The sorcerer class functions as the mage class with the following modifications:

• Hit Die: d6
• Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + CON Modifier
• Skill: Choose any two; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• Innate arcane spellcasting: The sorcerer uses CHA as the primary spellcasting ability, instead of INT, and substitutes CHA for INT in all arcane spellcasting uses where INT would otherwise be used.
• The sorcerer does not have or use a spellbook, but otherwise prepares and casts spells per the as the base mage class. The sorcerer can thus only gain new spells when a new level is gained.
• The sorcerer does not gain the Polyglot or Studious abilities.

Shaman. The shaman is a spellcaster whose magical ability comes from interaction with the spirit world. The shaman recognizes that all things have associated spirits which can be tapped to manifest magical abilities, if the caster is skilled and persuasive enough. Most primitive cultures and humanoid tribes have shamans who serve the spiritual and spellcasting needs of the community, rather than clerics or mages. The shaman class functions as the mage class with the following modifications:

• Spirit-based arcane spellcasting: The shaman uses CHA as the primary spellcasting ability, instead of INT, and substitutes CHA for INT in all spellcasting uses where INT would be used.
• Skill: Arcane Lore, Religious Lore, Persuade; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• The shaman does not gain the Studious or Polyglot abilities, nor does the shaman use a spellbook. The shaman can thus only gain new spells when a new spell level is gained.
• The shaman may choose spells to prepare from both the Cleric and Mage spell lists, with the number of spells cast per day governed by the “Mage Spells per Day” table (plus CHA bonus per level). If a spell is listed on both the Cleric and Mage lists at different spell levels, the shaman will use the higher level of the two.

Thief variants:

Scout. The scout is an expert in stealth and reconnaissance, often specializing either in the wilderness or underground. Scouts often support armies, or are hired to perform scouting duties for adventuring parties. The scout class functions as the thief class with the following modifications:

• Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium
• Skills: Perception, Stealth, Nature Lore or Dungeon Lore, plus pick two; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• Scouts do not know Thieves’ Cant.

Rogue. The rogue is a jack of all trades, specializing in skills. Rogues can be thieves, but need not be; some are simply scruffy scoundrels while others are charming leaders. The scout class functions as the thief class with the following modifications:

• Skills: Choose any five at first level; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus.
• Skill Mastery: At third level, instead of an Extra Skill, choose one skill in which to gain skill mastery.
• Rogues do not know Thieves’ Cant.
[/sblock]

I'm still using "thief" for the generic class term, with "rogue" as a variant, even though "rogue" is really the more generic term. I may switch them eventually, but I like the "old school" feel of the term thief, and while the base classes should be somewhat generic I don't want to push them to blandly generic. That's what keeps me from saying "ranger is fighter with free ability choice" ... variants should push to a more specific archetype. So maybe I should rename the thief ...

I confess to struggling quite a bit with the paladin and fighter/cleric (or warpriest or whatever I will call it). It's a real struggle to define what the "paladin" is and isn't. In my mind, he's mostly a fighter, with some divine ability (as seen reflected in the stats above). Yet then what is a fighter/cleric? Certainly it's a class with better fighting ability than the cleric (full BAB, more weapon skills), but less divine/spellcasting ability (no, or reduced Channel Divinity, with the one step bump in spells like the swordmage). That could be the paladin ... but is much more spellcasting than I associate with the paladin. Part of the problem as you point out is the cleric already has a lot of fighting skill. I've been leaning to "warpriest" as it gives a flavor justification for the middle step in fighting skill between cleric and fighter (and focus on war domain) -- but then it sacrifices the sort of flexibility that the swordmage retains. Maybe instead the fighter/cleric should give up the domain entirely and instead retain a partial channel divinity feature ... but I need a new name for the class. Or it's back to paladin ...

I think I've solved the Mage/thief (arcane trickster, as recommended) and fighter/thief (duelist).

Edit: Blast it, you've convinced me. The thief is now a rogue, and the thief is now the specialty variant.

Edit 2: And the more I think about it, the more I come closer to paladin = fighter/cleric. So that's done; what I have as a "paladin" above will become a "champion" for someone who wants paladin-like with more fighting but without the spellcasting. To make that trade balance, though, the paladin will have a d6 hit die, which might bother some folks. It's either that or trade an armor proficiency, and no heavy armor doesn't say "paladin" to me, especially when the cleric has heavy armor proficiency already.
 
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Druid.
• Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, Shields
• Skills: Religious Lore, Nature Lore, choose one additional skill; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• Orisons: The special druid orison shillelagh replaces magic weapon.
• Domain: Druids must select the Druid Domain as their domain choice
• Channel Divinity. Instead of Channel Divinity, druids Channel Nature. Instead of radiant or necrotic energy, the druid channels the green life force of nature, which will heal humanoids, plants, and animals within the burst radius, but damages monsters, undead, and extraplanar within the burst. This ability otherwise functions like the cleric Channel Divinity feature.
• Special: Druids speak Druidic, a language unique to their society

Perfect, except Channel Nature is strictly better than Channel Divinity, making the Druid significatively better than the Cleric.

I also think that the Priest Variant should not be in the core rules (see below).

Barbarian.
• Hit Die: d10
• Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + CON Modifier
• Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, Shields
• Skill: Athletics, Nature Lore; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• The barbarian does not gain the fighter’s Weapon Skill ability, instead gaining the larger Hit Die and increased hit points.

Perfect but i still prefer Berserker to Barbarian ;-P

Champion.
• Skill: Athletics, Religious Lore; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• The champion does not gain the fighter’s Weapon Skill ability at first level, instead gaining the cleric’s Channel Divinity (1d6) ability, which the paladin may use up to (1 + CHA bonus) times per day.

The 1d6 channel divinity is not really sexy... Maybe you can change it for the ability to use (X+CHA bonus) cleric's Orisons per day ?

Ranger.
• Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, Shields
• Skill: Perception, Stealth, Nature Lore or Dungeon Lore, choose one additional skill; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus
• The ranger does not gain the fighter’s Weapon Skill ability, gaining the Track ability. When using Track, the ranger adds +2 to any Nature Lore or Dungeon Lore checks used to track a creature.

Maybe Ahtletics instead of Stealth ?

Mage variants:

Not in the core rules from my point of view.
I think the core should stick to the real core classes of D&D.
Alos the versatility in spells give already to the class a lot of flexibility (same for the cleric but the druid is a "basic" D&D class.

Thief variants:

Not really needed IMHO just keep the "Choose any five at first level; plus one additional skill per point of INT bonus" for the base rogue class and you're done.

And the more I think about it, the more I come closer to paladin = fighter/cleric.

Agreed !
 

OK, the next iteration of the core rules Beta (v1.2) is completed and posted in the Downloads section. This has variant class options plus additional hybrid classes, and some tweaks to a couple of rules elements.

Perfect, except Channel Nature is strictly better than Channel Divinity, making the Druid significatively better than the Cleric.

Perhaps -- I'd like to let it play out. The cleric's has two choices; the druid's one. The druid's always damages a number of opponents, but will always heal some types of potential opponents, so it will make for interesting choices when used in combat. It is more flexible than the cleric's, which is more undead focused. But the druid does also sacrifice the choice of domain, and there are some useful choices in the other cleric domains.

Perfect but i still prefer Berserker to Barbarian ;-P

Since I've tied Berserker to rage, and barbarian doesn't have rage, I think they're reasonably split for the moment.


The 1d6 channel divinity is not really sexy... Maybe you can change it for the ability to use (X+CHA bonus) cleric's Orisons per day ?

Probably too good alone, since the magic weapon orison is almost the equal of the Fighter's weapon skill.


Maybe Ahtletics instead of Stealth ?

See the updated document, which gives the Ranger a choice.

I think the core should stick to the real core classes of D&D.
Alos the versatility in spells give already to the class a lot of flexibility (same for the cleric but the druid is a "basic" D&D class.

Well, I'm not trying to make an exact match to D&D; but rather trying to provide a reasonable set of choices in the core and expanded rules. Right now all of the class choices that rely on core abilities are in the core rules and virtually all of the novel class abilities are introduced in the expanded rules. I don't want to pull a "gotcha" where a choice that should be core is in the expansion. So if I include one variant, I should probably include them all -- or else put all of the variants in the Expanded. For the moment I'll stick with a few more choices.

Take a look, play around with it, and we'll see how the feedback comes in. Thanks for the input!
 
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OK, the next iteration of the core rules Beta (v1.2) is completed and posted in the Downloads section. This has variant class options plus additional hybrid classes, and some tweaks to a couple of rules elements. (...)Take a look, play around with it, and we'll see how the feedback comes in. Thanks for the input!

I will take a close look, don't worry about it and i start my playtest campagn the 7 of january.

But to be honest i will probably use some of my own ideas for the playstest.

For exemple i will present the fighter class without the 1.2 variants but with 2 flexible set of abilities

- when creating the character, the player can choose to trade heavy armor proficiency and/or shield proficiency for 1/2 supplemental class skills
- when creating the character, the player can choose to trade weapon skill for d10 hit dice OR channel divinity (with the requirement of religious lore as a skill class for this second one).

It basically covert the 3 variants (barbarian, ranger and champion) and can offer some new ideas (juggernaut knight, holy hunter, etc).

Anyway, i'll stay tuned, be sure !
 

For exemple i will present the fighter class without the 1.2 variants but with 2 flexible set of abilities

- when creating the character, the player can choose to trade heavy armor proficiency and/or shield proficiency for 1/2 supplemental class skills
- when creating the character, the player can choose to trade weapon skill for d10 hit dice OR channel divinity (with the requirement of religious lore as a skill class for this second one).

That's essentially how the variants work now -- there's a short section on using variant hybrids that basically equates armor proficiency to two skills.

Enjoy!
[MENTION=30952]Roadkill101[/MENTION]: The updated Expanded Rules alpha is up, too -- it has the renamed classes plus the "Fighting Styles as Feats" option. You'll aalso not that versions of your suggestions on minor healing and Dex bonus with armor have been incorporated in the updated core rules Beta document.
 

Adunaphe

First Post
Hi,

I really like your work on this retroclone.

After a first quick reading of the system, I think that the hybrid classes are far more powerful than the core ones.

They gain a lot of stuff for not losing that much.

I think hybrid fighter should not use the good BAB progression, attain heavy armor proficiency (more so that your system BAB cap very quickly), or gain access to higher level spells (max lvl 7 for arcane and lvl 5 for divine).

As your system is working, I think only fighter should have access to heavy armor (cleric could be limited to medium).

All in all, I find the core rogue a bit underpowered as the sorcerer variant who lose a lot for not gaining much (should have more spells known or castable).

Another little remark, I think +3 for skill proficiency is not enough. It's only a 15% boost on a d20 roll, so it doesn't make such a difference. Luck stay more important than skill. Perhaps a base +5 or the ability to roll 2 dices and keep the better.

Anyway it's a very good job.
 
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Hi,

I really like your work on this retroclone.

After a first quick reading of the system, I think that the hybrid classes are far more powerful than the core ones.

They gain a lot of stuff for not losing that much.

I think hybrid fighter should not use the good BAB progression, attain heavy armor proficiency (more so that your system BAB cap very quickly), or gain access to higher level spells (max lvl 7 for arcane and lvl 5 for divine).

Worth considering; though all the hybrid classes are at least a level behind in spellcasting starting at level 3, so there is a delay in gaining spell power, in addition to not gaining some of the other class abilities. With the flatter math, each +1 matters, so the fighter's Weapon skill is a decent boost. Still, at 15th+ level there isn't as much difference, so it is worth considering if the hybrids should be backed down a little bit.

Another little remark, I think +3 for skill proficiency is not enough. It's only a 15% boost on a d20 roll, so it doesn't make such a difference. Luck stay more important than skill. Perhaps a base +5 or the ability to roll 2 dices and keep the better.

The bonuses have to be considered in line with the flatter math, along with flat skill DCs and generally lower DCs. With a decent stat, say 16/+2, and skill proficiency, the "nigh impossible" DC of 25 is achieved 5% of the time at 1st level. That goes up to 15% with skill mastery (not to mention later bumps from stats & magic). Since average difficulty is 10, and difficult is 15, the system is designed to allow a proficient character to achieve a difficult task 50% of the time right out of the gate. The question is -- is that often enough? We want the DCs to remain meaningful across the entire range of levels; I want to avoid the 3E problem of needing DC35-level challenges to challenge a high level character.

Thanks for your input!
 



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