D&D (2024) Is Counterspell less frustrating now?

[James Gasik]

Someone else mentioned it but concentration wasn't quite what you described. Again 2e had too many differences for easy comparison but a few relevant ones were noted n 178. In 3.x though concentration realistically came up in two kinds of situations.

The first was sometimes common and almost always well deserved. Casting a spell provoked an AoO (attack of opportunity) and getting hit by it required a concentration check or lose the spell/slot. That scenario was attempting to surprise attack in a social situation when discussions broke down. You could get around it by previously preparing a quickened version of the spell in a higher level slot but that kind of dark Willow:"bored now" was for (some) class abilities/magic items and martials or (some scary) monsters not a wizard or whatever. Sorcerer may have been able to spontaneously apply metamagic I think but it was still probably an unsavory option because then they were starting a fight in melee (or close to it) where they were going to be vulnerable to the other situation right out of the gate.

the other situation was casting a spell in melee during a fight (with initiative and everything). If a concentration check was made then either the caster was already effectively in check (chess style) in a way that left them feeling like casting the spell while threatened (mostly an "in melee range" analog)was there best/only option. Casters would make an effort to avoid needing to do that and as a result any kind of yard trash mooks/minions could put significant pressure on casters just by herding them around. That went both ways though and the mooks could still provide the bbeg a round or two of delay with little effort most times. If a caster was getting smacked by an AoO for casting in melee it meant that the caster already failed and lost the first step to not be in melee like that and chose to take that risk. 5e got rid of all the nuance and made that "bored now" with impunity the default.

Don't forget Casting on the Defensive by making a Concentration check when casting!

 

[kigmatzomat]

Don't forget Casting on the Defensive by making a Concentration check when casting!

That eliminated AoOs but did nothing for a held/readied action. As the thief-archer in my 3e group proved repeatedly.

Of course, a caster who got everyone to hold action for spell casting and instead used an item or attacked with a weapon cost all those PCs their actions.

I had one BBEG thief with a lot of wands that PCs thought was a caster. Verrry funny....to me at least.

 

[mellored]

Counterspell now ends a whole turn for a legendary creature? Wow - I didn’t realize it was that OP; I thought it just countered one low level spell, or a higher level spell if lucky/upcast. It must really suck to have 0 movement, no legendary actions, reactions, bonus actions, multiple actions…

How many legendary creatures are we talking about now?

You're still not naming any other comparable features...

 

[tetrasodium]

Don't forget Casting on the Defensive by making a Concentration check when casting!

At dc15+ spell level or lose the action uses to cast plus the spell and it's prepared slot casting defensively was hardly a catch all solution that would allow a spellcaster to sidestep the two main kinds of situations that required a check. A player was still generally only making that check if they had already failed at not being placed in check by the bbeg 's mooks/minions. This is still a situation where 5e broke it chasing simplicity and endlessly told the gm to step up with better encounters

 

[Stalker0]

Counterspell now ends a whole turn for a legendary creature? Wow - I didn’t realize it was that OP; I thought it just countered one low level spell, or a higher level spell if lucky/upcast. It must really suck to have 0 movement, no legendary actions, reactions, bonus actions, multiple actions…

How many legendary creatures are we talking about now?

While legendary creatures have legendary actions, most of those LAs are not equivalent to the main action. When a LC loses its action, its a big deal, far bigger than for any other creature.

 

[DragonBelow]

I'm sorry I literally don't believe you if you're claiming your casters are routinely more than 65ft (13 squares) away from the enemy ones.

No, but they move around the battlefield to avoid being countered

 

[James Gasik]

At dc15+ spell level or lose the action uses to cast plus the spell and it's prepared slot casting defensively was hardly a catch all solution that would allow a spellcaster to sidestep the two main kinds of situations that required a check. A player was still generally only making that check if they had already failed at not being placed in check by the bbeg 's mooks/minions. This is still a situation where 5e broke it chasing simplicity and endlessly told the gm to step up with better encounters

Still, it's not hard to routinely cast defensively, just keep the skill at max, spend a feat on Skill Focus Concentration or Combat Casting and obviously, don't dump Con, and you can be making that check automatically eventually since the skill check goes up by 1 each level, and the DC only goes up every other level.

For example, Bob the Boring, Human Wizard. 14 Constitution, one of his Feats used for Skill Focus, 4 points in Concentration gives him a +9 when he has to make a 15 for a 0-level and a 16 for a 1st-level.

At level 3, now that he's got 2nd level spells, his check is +11 but the DC is 17.

At level 5, his check is +`13 and the DC is only 18. And so on.

And you could make it fool proof by also taking Combat Casting if you wanted to. Far easier, of course, to spend a spell on a powerful defense buff that will last the entire combat, like shield for +4 AC (on top of your all day +4 from armor), or what have you.

 

[DragonBelow]

It just needs to not exist.

It has no real reason to exist. It just makes the game objectively worse.

There has been a way to interrupt casters while casting spells at least since 2e, it existed in 3.5 too. It just happened to come in the form of taking damage while casting. Counterspell is the only way to prevent a spell being cast in 5e, and it's necessary.

 

[tetrasodium]

Still, it's not hard to routinely cast defensively, just keep the skill at max, spend a feat on Skill Focus Concentration or Combat Casting and obviously, don't dump Con, and you can be making that check automatically eventually since the skill check goes up by 1 each level, and the DC only goes up every other level.

For example, Bob the Boring, Human Wizard. 14 Constitution, one of his Feats used for Skill Focus, 4 points in Concentration gives him a +9 when he has to make a 15 for a 0-level and a 16 for a 1st-level.

At level 3, now that he's got 2nd level spells, his check is +11 but the DC is 17.

At level 5, his check is +`13 and the DC is only 18. And so on.

And you could make it fool proof by also taking Combat Casting if you wanted to. Far easier, of course, to spend a spell on a powerful defense buff that will last the entire combat, like shield for +4 AC (on top of your all day +4 from armor), or what have you.

You are again ignoring system differences & all the ways 5e has overly simplified, choosing one feat over some other feat was a meaningful cost because there were so many great feats. A spellcaster absolutely could take feats like that but unless they needed those for a prereq to some other feat or PrC it was quite the opportunity cost to eat with questionable returns or value. Making a case for the caster who specializes to do that one thing ignores all the other things the caster gave up the ability to specialize in. Unsurprisingly 5e's quest for simplicity snapped off both of those options

 

[James Gasik]

You are again ignoring system differences & all the ways 5e has overly simplified, choosing one feat over some other feat was a meaningful cost because there were so many great feats. A spellcaster absolutely could take feats like that but unless they needed those for a prereq to some other feat or PrC it was quite the opportunity cost to eat with questionable returns or value. Making a case for the caster who specializes to do that one thing ignores all the other things the caster gave up the ability to specialize in. Unsurprisingly 5e's quest for simplicity snapped off both of those options

That depends entirely on what part of the game's life cycle you are in and what books are allotted to you. A Human Wizard gets 2 feats at first level, and you get them every 3 levels, plus bonus Wizard feats every 5. There aren't many choice Wizard feats that you can't get with that; without metamagic reducers, it comes down to spell focus and item creation, and even then, not all of those are worth talking about (Craft Staff for example, is a huge waste of time).

That's the game as it was originally designed, so spending an early feat on a skill focus to increase your survivability is not a big deal. What else were you going to take? Dodge? A case might be made for Improved Initiative, but I digress.

Add more books? Well now you have Steady Concentration so you can take 10 on those checks.

I understand that different tables played the game differently, and if you're trying to qualify for your Dweomerkeeper/Incantatrix with Initiate of Mystra, feats are in high demand, but by that point, you can make custom items that grant a +10 competence bonus to skill checks (say, Concentration) for 5000 gp (since you made it yourself), though that's likely overkill, and the vastly cheaper +5 for 1250 gp is a steal.

So no, I'm not ignoring system differences; if you wanted to make not having to worry about losing spells happen in 3e, you totally could and it wasn't difficult to do, by the rules presented, nor were the sacrifices really that big of a deal. Like say, playing a human. Vs. what? No PHB races had caster stat bonuses, Elf costs you hit points, and so the only serious contender for Human is maybe Dwarf. OTOH, if your table is allowing Lesser Aasimar or LA buy off for your anthropomorphic bat Druid, then yeah, maybe that is an issue, but when you're playing the game at that level, as I said, there are plenty of other options to look at.

And as for readying an attack? That's your standard action. Most everything has multiple attacks per turn, so it's far better to just attack and try to stop the spellcaster the old fashioned way. By reducing hit points to zero.