How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

[Thomas Shey]

Out of curiosity, do you demand to know the DC of skill checks before you make them in play? Do you need to know the AC and hit points and saving throw values of the monsters and enemies? Do dice rolls "in the tower" bother you?

Not always, but to the degree I don't, I also don't kid myself I'm working with complete information. In many cases I don't need to (because other descriptions have been in terms that have mechanical references). In some, I do actually expect to know those. In yet others, I can accept there is stuff that is outside the character's sensory and assessment range (you'll note I've defended doing that under some circumstances before).

But I do consider a generic answer of something like "It looks easy" pretty useless unless I know that's a term of art or know the GM very well.

 

[Reynard]

Not always, but to the degree I don't, I also don't kid myself I'm working with complete information. In many cases I don't need to (because other descriptions have been in terms that have mechanical references). In some, I do actually expect to know those. In yet others, I can accept there is stuff that is outside the character's sensory and assessment range (you'll note I've defended doing that under some circumstances before).

But I do consider a generic answer of something like "It looks easy" pretty useless unless I know that's a term of art or know the GM very well.

Again, my only argument is that the "hidden system" style is a valid way to play and was very informative on the early hobby. I myself like rules in the open, although I do keep most DCs secret just because I think it is more fun that way. Uncertainty is valuable in play as long as it isn't abused.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I assume that foundational information is based on the real world whenever possible and until shown otherwise, to the point where I'm willing to change the rules if they are proven to be inaccurate in this way.

As I've noted, "the real world" doesn't mean much in many cases, either. You've got a 6' wide gap you're trying to jump across. Do you have any idea how hard that is with a running jump? How about a running jump for someone with the physical traits of your character? How about all of that with those physical traits and the equipment the character has? I'm going to suggest in many cases neither the GM nor the player actually knows that; it might be something certain kinds of outdoorsmen or current or ex-infantry might have a better clue about, but in most circumstances neither of them may be those.

So just describing something like that is often pretty much useless, since you have two different people making estimates from fundamentally uneducated positions, and thus are likely either completely arbitrary or colored by their readings and watching of things, many of which may be fiction.

The situations where many things that adventuring characters do relates enough to enough real world experience for players is vanishingly small in many cases.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Or built upon the agreed source material. If we are playing a Hogwarts game, we all know what that means.

In some respects, you're probably better off there than using the "real world" as a basis in many cases.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Again, my only argument is that the "hidden system" style is a valid way to play and was very informative on the early hobby. I myself like rules in the open, although I do keep most DCs secret just because I think it is more fun that way. Uncertainty is valuable in play as long as it isn't abused.

"Valid" is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence. Let's just say I never found it particularly good even back then. People can play as they wish of course, but as a general policy its an approach then when applied broadly I consider to be counterproductive and in some senses, harmful.

 

[Reynard]

In some respects, you're probably better off there than using the "real world" as a basis in many cases.

Definitely. RPGs tend to be played in specific genres or milieus and using those as common language at the table is very useful. Trying to use the real world reveals some pretty strange perceptions of reality.

 

[Reynard]

"Valid" is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence. Let's just say I never found it particularly good even back then. People can play as they wish of course, but as a general policy its an approach then when applied broadly I consider to be counterproductive and in some senses, harmful.

Harmful? How?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Harmful? How?

Because it all too easily leaves people stuck making decisions on things where their decision making is actually inferior to the ability their characters would have in the situation. Go look at my jumping example for how off this can be. That's harmful to gameplay, and harmful to roleplaying.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Definitely. RPGs tend to be played in specific genres or milieus and using those as common language at the table is very useful. Trying to use the real world reveals some pretty strange perceptions of reality.

The only risk you have is that the reading of the sourceworks can sometimes differ significantly; as an example look at the differences in how people perceive the magic potency level in sword and sorcery depending on their criteria.

 

[Corinnguard]

As I've noted, "the real world" doesn't mean much in many cases, either. You've got a 6' wide gap you're trying to jump across. Do you have any idea how hard that is with a running jump? How about a running jump for someone with the physical traits of your character? How about all of that with those physical traits and the equipment the character has? I'm going to suggest in many cases neither the GM nor the player actually knows that; it might be something certain kinds of outdoorsmen or current or ex-infantry might have a better clue about, but in most circumstances neither of them may be those.

Especially when you are dealing with a setting where magic, planes of existence and the divine is very real. As for the trio of questions, the answers for each one is most certainly going to be a no. What the character does know is that they are willing to take a risk at making that running jump. As for succeeding, well that's where the skill check comes into play.