How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

[aramis erak]

You must be joking.

You really are joking.

Nope. I don't joke on forums as a general rule.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Why? Play would go something like this:

GM: The evil sorcerer is chanting and waving his arms as a globe of vile miasma from the Pit itself coalesces in front of him.
Player: That's not good! I try and stop him.
GM: How?
Player: I throw my dagger at him!
GM: Okay. (dice clatter) The dagger tumbles through the air and then THUNKS into the sorcerer's thigh. He snarls and spits and continues his spell.
Player: That's even more not good!

Next time, the player tries something else. What's the problem?

Gm: The evil sorcerer is chanting and waving his arms as a globe of vile miasma from the Pit itself coalesces in front of him.
Player: That's not good! I try and stop him.
GM: You already went this turn. You should have readied an action to trigger an attack when he started casting a spell.
Player: How was I supposed to know that?
GM: Intuition? I don't know... sucks to be you. Who's next?

 

[Reynard]

Gm: The evil sorcerer is chanting and waving his arms as a globe of vile miasma from the Pit itself coalesces in front of him.
Player: That's not good! I try and stop him.
GM: You already went this turn. You should have readied an action to trigger an attack when he started casting a spell.
Player: How was I supposed to know that?
GM: Intuition? I don't know... sucks to be you. Who's next?

So, you are going to assume adversarial jerk GM behavior as a strawman against the idea? Go ahead, but it isn't a reasonable way to engage the subject

 

[hawkeyefan]

So, you are going to assume adversarial jerk GM behavior as a strawman against the idea? Go ahead, but it isn't a reasonable way to engage the subject

You don't see the issue?

How would one know they can ready an action? In another edition, how would one know they cannot ready an action?

Is it intuitive to know it can be done? Or that it can't be done? Or should the player be able to intuit it based on edition?

 

[Reynard]

You don't see the issue?

How would one know they can ready an action? In another edition, how would one know they cannot ready an action?

Is it intuitive to know it can be done? Or that it can't be done? Or should the player be able to intuit it based on edition?

Again, you are assuming people aren't playing in good faith. You are assuming the player or the GM is trying to get one over on the other, rather than working together.

 

[pemerton]

What you are talking about is collaborative world building and narrative mechanics. Those are new-ish (although a look at the history of the hobby will show they have been around longer than you think) and have really come to the fore with the popularity of Powered by the Apocalypse and inspired systems.

I'm not 100% sure what "narrative mechanics" are, but assuming it means something like player-side mechanics that permit stipulating the fiction without that being anchored in the player's character then I am 100% sure that Apocalypse World doesn't bring them to the fore. There is one Battlebabe move, one Savvyhead move, maybe one or two other playbook moves.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Again, you are assuming people aren't playing in good faith. You are assuming the player or the GM is trying to get one over on the other, rather than working together.

No, I’m not. The last bit was a joke because I think it sums up the attitude of not providing rules pretty well. I mean, what’s more adversarial than not letting people know the rules of the game they’re playing?

But aside from that… if the game in question is 5e and the GM is actually following the rules, then how is he to handle that? The player already took their turn… they want to interrupt a caster on the caster’s turn… there’s no way per the rules for the PC to be able to interrupt (barring a spell like counterspell or similar).

So what is the GM supposed to do? Tell the player the rules so they know how it works in the future (gasp!)?

Or does he bend the rules?

I think the latter is the main reason to hide rules from players. And I’m not a fan of that, so I’d much rather just share the rules to begin with.

 

[pemerton]

all character mechanics are usually doing is telling you the likelihood of succeeding at things and what influences it. The benefit of them is that it cuts out a lot of communication of failure from GMs and players not explaining to each other what's going on in enough of a fashion the other properly understands it.

This description of action resolution mechanics seems better-suited to some RPGs than others.

Things like action economy, principles for how a failure or success is narrated (including establishing what is at stake), and the like - basically, the rules that govern how "the conversation" of play unfolds - are pretty important for players to have a handle on. And these are not about likelihoods of success.

Perhaps you don't envisage them as part of "character mechanics"? But they are crucial to knowing what "succeeding at a thing" even means.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Gm: The evil sorcerer is chanting and waving his arms as a globe of vile miasma from the Pit itself coalesces in front of him.
Player: That's not good! I try and stop him.
GM: You already went this turn. You should have readied an action to trigger an attack when he started casting a spell.
Player: How was I supposed to know that?
GM: Intuition? I don't know... sucks to be you. Who's next?

Was there any visible indicator that the evil sorcerer was about to cast a spell prior to the GM's turn? If not, too bad. If so, the GM should be mentioning this stuff when it happens, in most cases the top of the round I would imagine.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Was there any visible indicator that the evil sorcerer was about to cast a spell prior to the GM's turn? If not, too bad. If so, the GM should be mentioning this stuff when it happens, in most cases the top of the round I would imagine.

If it was 5e, why would there be? Characters don’t have to declare actions until it’s their turn. The GM is free to wait until the sorcerer’s turn to decide what he’s going to do. If he casts a spell, there are only certain ways that action could be disrupted. Otherwise, it all takes place on a single turn… declaration through resolution.

Other editions may handle it differently. And each of those might present its own problems with not sharing rules.