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D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

Chaosmancer

Legend
There's a huge difference between a painting and a campaign setting. A painting is a single, still image. The artist quite probably had important reasons for painting in a particular style, but those reasons are not actually all that useful for painters. For instance, abstract painting came about because the invention of the camera made lifelike paintings pointless. Why spend hours or days or longer on a painting when a camera could do the same thing in no time at all. Instead, painters decided to try to capture movement and emotion and the play of light and color at different times of day, which cameras at the time couldn't do. Knowing this bit of Art History 101 does not make me into a better painter. Actually getting paint on the brush and canvas does.

Yes yes Analogies are not perfect.

A setting is going to have decade's worth of information built into it from potentially dozens of writers (as well as hundreds or thousands of GMs), meaning it's going to be simply too complex to show how it was made

Is it? I don't think it is too complex. Because I think you are trying to look at this as though it is an encyclopedia. Even if you were making a brand-new setting, attempting to include 200 cities, a dozen factions, three different BBEGs and thirty areas of interest is going to be too much.

We are talking about a chapter. Even if it is a full 10% of the book, we are talking only a little over thirty pages. So, clearly we are going to be looking smaller. Maybe two or three regions, with a major city, and a threat or three in each area. And it would be very easy to start with "Make a location, like the Village of Hommlet. Now, you need a nearby threat to hook the adventurers in, like this abandoned temple" yadda yadda.

--assuming they even know why certain aspects were included in the first place. I doubt that everyone who contributed to Greyhawk (or the Realms, or any other setting) wrote down those reasons. And let's face it, a lot of those reasons would be "because it's cool" or "because my players did it this way" (IIRC, this was the reasoning behind the creation of kender), or "because I have issues that really should have been worked out in therapy." (cough, cough, whoever decided the drow were evil dominatrices, cough). None of these are really helpful for worldbuilders.

Actually... because it is cool is a fine reason for a world-builder, spoken as a world-builder. But I'm talking function. You need to create towns and cities, why? Explain the reason. You need to create adventure spots, why? Explain the reason. You need areas with multiple threat levels, why? Explain the reason.

Sure, maybe they don't have Gary Gygax in a glass jar to pick his exact memories for why he did something, but I'd also say that I doubt Greyhawk is so poorly put together that it isn't impossible for a world-builder to look at it, figure out a reason, and then use that to explain to someone the logic behind world-building for the game.

You aren't trying to feed them an encyclopedia of everything that has ever happened in Greyhawk, but you are looking for examples of "how do you build an effective BBEG", "How do you make it interesting to travel from the low-level village to the mid-level city" and things like that.
 

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Faolyn

(she/her)
We are talking about a chapter. Even if it is a full 10% of the book, we are talking only a little over thirty pages. So, clearly we are going to be looking smaller. Maybe two or three regions, with a major city, and a threat or three in each area. And it would be very easy to start with "Make a location, like the Village of Hommlet. Now, you need a nearby threat to hook the adventurers in, like this abandoned temple" yadda yadda.
What you're talking about is building the first adventures, not worldbuilding. For worldbuilding, you need to go deeper than that. "Put the village of Hommlet here" isn't helpful. Why put the village in this location? How much detail and depth should this first location have? How much is too much and how much is too little? How big an area should you map out? What relation does this village have to the big cities around it? Is this important for the adventures you have in mind? Do you want to include every species in your world, or just some of them? What do they think of each other? Do some classes have a particular meaning in your world? How important is alignment for your setting? What sort of evil forces do you have in your setting? Where on the realistic-to-fantastic scale do you want to go?

Sure, maybe they don't have Gary Gygax in a glass jar to pick his exact memories for why he did something, but I'd also say that I doubt Greyhawk is so poorly put together that it isn't impossible for a world-builder to look at it, figure out a reason, and then use that to explain to someone the logic behind world-building for the game.

You aren't trying to feed them an encyclopedia of everything that has ever happened in Greyhawk, but you are looking for examples of "how do you build an effective BBEG", "How do you make it interesting to travel from the low-level village to the mid-level city" and things like that.
Again, those are adventure building tips--which are, in fact, very helpful!--but they're not worldbuilding tips.

There are plenty of DMs who build a world that exists only so far as the adventure needs it to. And there are plenty of DMs who build a world first and the adventures later. Neither of those is superior to the others.

But my question to you is, why is it so important that an existing world be used for this, rather than creating a new one "with" the players?
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
What you're talking about is building the first adventures, not worldbuilding. For worldbuilding, you need to go deeper than that. "Put the village of Hommlet here" isn't helpful. Why put the village in this location? How much detail and depth should this first location have? How much is too much and how much is too little? How big an area should you map out? What relation does this village have to the big cities around it? Is this important for the adventures you have in mind? Do you want to include every species in your world, or just some of them? What do they think of each other? Do some classes have a particular meaning in your world? How important is alignment for your setting? What sort of evil forces do you have in your setting? Where on the realistic-to-fantastic scale do you want to go?


Again, those are adventure building tips--which are, in fact, very helpful!--but they're not worldbuilding tips.

Well, to an extent... adventure building and world building are the same thing. For example, the how much is too much detail and how much depth is too much depth are key for both. And the answer for this chapter is going to be less detail and less depth, by sheer necessity. Again, we are likely looking at 30 to 50 pages, max. There is only so much you can do with that, when you have 48 subclasses, dozens of species, multiple religions, a few planar powers, and then politics.

For an example, I very much doubt that we are going to get much discussion on how hags feel about dragons, or how dragons feel about vampires, unless it is something unique and interesting.

Also, I do want to point out, we don't have the book, or the chapter yet. I can only make wild guesses about how they are going to start. Will they start with a blank terrain map, then point out civilizations built based on that terrain? Will they start with the gods and churches and have that lead into politics and trade routes? Will they talk about the various species and their connections first? I don't know. Any of those COULD work.

There are plenty of DMs who build a world that exists only so far as the adventure needs it to. And there are plenty of DMs who build a world first and the adventures later. Neither of those is superior to the others.

I've never even attempted to claim one is better than the other, so you can cut that line of argument off at the root.

But my question to you is, why is it so important that an existing world be used for this, rather than creating a new one "with" the players?

Why is it important or why is it useful?

1) It allows for the WoTC team to connect to the heritage of the game for the 50th anniversary. Yes, they could create something new, but by using something old, they acknowledge their past. This is important to them.

2) By using an existing setting, they reduce the workload. Creating a new setting from scratch isn't difficult, but it does take a lot of effort that the team may not have the time for since this is part of all the other core books they are writing. It may be that they decided that creating a new setting is best done with a new setting book, that they can devote their entire attention to.

3) Since this is the example setting in a core book, it needs to include everything in the core books, monster manual and PHB included. Creating a new setting where the Sun is an ancient dragon at war with vampire armies that come from the moon would be rather strange, since the Monster Manual won't talk about any of that. So, by necessity the setting in the core book will need to be slightly more "generic DnD". Since we already HAVE settings that are generic DnD, it makes sense to use one of them, instead of creating a third or fourth.

4) Many of the people who are writing these settings likely have many of their own creative ideas. Chris Perkins, for example, made a really fascinating dragon-island world over a decade and a half a ago. He may not WANT his ideas in the DMG, where it is owned by the company, and out of his creative control. Creatives get frustrated with things like losing control of their creations. A new setting, exclusively meant for an example chapter, might not be something one of the designers wants to put into the book and have stripped of their name and input.

5) Since this is an existing setting, that will then be available for use on DMsGuild, there is very little additional support that will be required to be published. You do not need to create additional adventures specifically set in the setting, you don't need a setting book, you don't need to create more, because the setting exists. You still CAN, and adventures have already been including Greyhawk as an option for the published adventures, but a new setting would REQUIRE those products and restrict what they can publish in the meanwhile.


Now, I think your real question is more in line we "why shouldn't we use a new setting" but you also keep giving off this feeling that using an old setting has some downsides. Frankly though... I don't think it does. Because the thing you are worried about? This idea that the old setting is going to be useless to new players unless they fill in dozens of pages of existing lore... I don't think that's needed. Yes, Greyhawk is already created, but they can present the chapter as though it ISN'T already created. The actual process of creating the examples and explaining the process is actually identical whether you are starting with a blank page, or a filled in page. Remember, this isn't like a live stream video, it is text. The writers would need to write a new setting, then go back and create the examples and the explain the process, because they can't type both things at the same time. They are just skipping the creation step, which has benefits.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
I feel there is a huge difference between FR and GH, the whole vibe is so different for me. I don’t really like the over the top HF of FR, but really enjoy the more old school gritty S&S vibe of GH. For me the difference is big. I’ll play FR but when I run it I tone it down. Also never realized there was such GH “hate” floating around, glad I’ve avoided for so long.
Is that really Greyhawk or just how you played Greyhawk. I mean Dungeonland and The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror are set there. As is Tomb of Horrors and Expedition to Barrier Peaks.

I think many fans of Greyhawk are lucky that Gary's actual Castle Greyhawk was never published. I mean, from what those who played in it back in the 70s have said, it was pretty gonzo, such as having an encounter involving a Star Trek film crew.

Greyhawk could certainly be run as a gritty Swords & Sworcery campaign, but can just as easily be run as high fantasy. Looking at the encounter tables in the Greyhawk boxed set, magic-users and magic items were certainly not uncommon.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Explain it, please.

Forgotten Realms is the kitchen sink of D&D covering nearly every fantasy or mythological culture imaginable from Arthurian fantasy in Cormyr to Arabian Nights in Zakhara to Lankhmar-like urban fantasy in Baldur’s Gate.

Ravenloft is the setting of Hammer and Universal picture inspired Gothic horror where adventurers are pitted against intricately detailed horror villains.

Planescape is where adventurers can travel to the outer planes and find Sigil, a city with portals to virtually anywhere defined by factions with different cosmic philosophies where they can readily encounter angels and demons, sometimes in the same tavern.

What is Greyhawk?
Well, there is a huge difference, but it is mostly in the volume of setting detail and lore.

Greyhawk is an outline with lots of random table for developing into your own setting. Forgotten Realms has a large body of setting details, lore, and novels. Nearly any FR adventure could be placed into Greyhawk and vice versa and now feel out of place. But I think it would be easier to plug things into Greyhawk than FR if you are trying to keep mostly true to canon, because Greyhawk just doesn't have a great deal of Cannon. That said, you could just take the FR maps and some high level history and details and make it your own, ignoring most of the Canon. Both were meant as tools for people to make their own campaigns. FR is great for people who want a detailed, fleshed out world. Greyhawk is is better off for DMs who just want a nice map and high level setting information to throw their adventures into.

I don't buy people who try to distinguish the two on the basis of high vs low magic or GH being more gritty than FR. Greyhawk may not be as high magic as FR, but it is certainly not low magic based on the tables, history, and area descriptions in the '83 boxed set (or the adventures TSR published set in Greyhawk). It is only remembered as more gritty because AD&D was more gritty than 5e.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
I've still got just a few pages to catch up on before I'm current, but I had to stop here.

Because this is factually wrong.

Greyhawk was created as a catchall place to playtest everything in the new game as Gygax was designing (1973) and publishing it (1974).
It wasn't 'til seven years later that the World of Greyhawk folio came out after fans were asking about the names and places mentioned in core source material, catering to a demand. But, the world was not created from whole cloth in 1980. Its creation began in 1973 and grew, changed, and added all the new rules options for years, before the setting was ever even published.
Sorry, yes. I realize that he started working on Greyhawk as his personal setting, like Blackmoore was Arneson's. I was referring to creating this specific product. But he did not include most of the content from his home setting into the published product. He initially didn't think that a highly detailed setting that spelled everything out was what DMs were looking for. You don't have to take my word for it, Gary discussed it in in threads on ENworld.

"When I was asked by TSR to do my World of Greyhawk as a commercial product I was taken aback. I had assumed most DMs would far prefer to use their own world settings". "Gary Gygax: Q & A (Part IV, Page 11)". EN World. 2003-11-05. Archived from the original on 2011-06-15. Retrieved 2009-03-15.

"When I initially began creating adventure material I assumed that the GMs utilizing the work would prefer substance without window dressing, the latter being properly the realm of the GM so as to suit the campaign world and player group". "Gary Gygax: Q & A (Part XII, Page 40)". EN World. 2007-03-28. Archived from the original on 2012-10-04. Retrieved 2009-03-15.

"In addition, he did not want to publish all the material he had created for his players; he thought he would be unlikely to recoup a fair investment for the thousands of hours he had spent on it. Since his secrets would be revealed to his players, he would be forced to recreate a new world for them afterward." Wikipedia (Greyhawk - Wikipedia). "As I was running a game with a large number of players involved, I really didn't want to supply them with the whole world on a platter". "Gary Gygax: Q & A (Part IV, Page 11)". EN World. 2003-11-05. Archived from the original on 2011-06-15. Retrieved 2009-03-15.

"In regards to the timeline for the WoG setting, I had no immediate plan for advancing it as the world was meant to be used by all DMs so desirous, each making it conform to his own campaign needs". "Gary Gygax: Q & A (Part XIII, Page 9)". EN World. 2007-04-25. Archived from the original on 2012-10-05. Retrieved 2009-03-15.

Of course, he later came around and had plans to publish more details on various regions of the setting but his going to Hollywood and eventual ousting stopped GH from becoming a fully detailed setting like Forgotten Realms.
 
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There are plenty of DMs who build a world that exists only so far as the adventure needs it to. And there are plenty of DMs who build a world first and the adventures later. Neither of those is superior to the others.
Not true. The purpose of a rulebook is to teach new players how to play the game. And for new players "just build as much as you need for the adventure" is the correct advice.

Elaborate Tolkienesque worldbuilding is a fun activity for some, but it's a different activity to playing a game of D&D.
 

I have not recruited players in a long time but the last time I sent a public call out I was forced to say "no" to someone who wanted to be a cleric centaur who worshiped a goddess of intimacy. I will not go into further detail.

I am not a fan of "quirky."
Whether or not sexual references are permitted is a matter that should be addressed in session zero, and has nothing to do with "quirky characters". There are plenty of horny humans around, it's pretty common.
 

What I remember from the WoG folio is there was lots of stuff on knightly orders, chivalry, and heraldry, accompanied by art that was very "Hollywood Medieval". I guess it was down to the personal enthusiasms of the author, since it didn't really relate to the fantasy I was reading at the time (REH, Moorcock). "Use your own enthusiasms" is good advice though.

The other thing that stuck me was it was a huge continent broken up into lots of tiny, very similar, kingdoms. I think this was down to D&Ds wargaming roots. The idea was that a PC could rule a kingdom and go round conquering others to build an empire.

Oh, and it didn't have much on cities*/urban adventures. It's now apparent that this was because the author came from the middle of nowhere and didn't have much experience of city life.

*Around that time someone had The City State of the Invincible Overlord. Unfortunately they were not a friend, and I was unable to get a copy for myself. But it was much more what I would want from a setting - lots of local detail.
 
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