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Grade the Hero System

How do you feel about The Hero System (any variant)?

  • I love it.

    Votes: 17 17.3%
  • It's pretty good.

    Votes: 19 19.4%
  • It's alright I guess.

    Votes: 23 23.5%
  • It's pretty bad.

    Votes: 5 5.1%
  • I hate it.

    Votes: 3 3.1%
  • I've never played it.

    Votes: 28 28.6%
  • I've never even heard of it.

    Votes: 3 3.1%

Thomas Shey

Legend
It was one of my two go-to systems for many years. These days I tend to want something slightly (but only slightly) lighter, but the few times I've dipped my toes back into it I still feel it holds up. Its definitely not a system for those who want a lightweight system, but it also gets a rep for being more complex (especially past character generation and/or when not building characters using the powers system) than it is, sometimes to really hyperbolic levels.
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
Champions is a great supers game, although it is the absolute epitome of what a min-max character generation system is.

Well, when you get down to it, the more you can tune a character the more potential for min-maxing is present. There's a reason I always used a secondary capping system in my latter day years with it.

When generalized into Hero, though it is not nearly as successful. Fantasy Hero is probably the best (worst?) example. What works well for superpowers works poorly when translated into spells. The other variants succeed or fail, basically depending on how flexible their characters' powers/tech/specialness is.

It really depends on what kind of magic you're wanting to simulate. There's a reason the last two incarnations of FH had somewhat extensive discussions of ways to set up magic systems that use somewhat different assumptions than the core "powers plus modifiers" or "power frameworks" approaches.

That said, I'm not sold its not still better than most fantasy games; its not like almost all fantasy makes fairly specific assumptions about magic; its just a case whether you like those particular assumptions. Among other things, whether exception based design is a virtue is very much in the eye of the beholder, and people who really want to have their magic system in that mode are going to have to do some serious heavy lifting to get Hero to do that for them.
 

MGibster

Legend
I played it a few times, but as I was already into GURPS I didn't see the point of playing Champions too. I didn't think GURPs was a superior game, just that Champions didn't offer any reason for me to jump ship. The only real difference in my mind is that GURPS has a ton of awesome supplements published over the years and Champions doesn't.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I regret to say that I've never played a single Hero System game. Superhero games really aren't my thing...the closest I ever got to one of them was the Immortals set of D&D (the "I" in BECMI), and I care so little for it that I've been known to drop the letter from the acronym. It wasn't until I read the Wikipedia article that I even knew there were more Hero System games than just Champions, and had I known that, I might have tried a little harder to branch out. Alas.

But don't let my genre preferences put you off. If you've played any of the games that use this system, chime in and tell me about them. I'd love to change my mind, especially about roleplaying games.

There's an argument that can be made that Hero is, in some respects, actually better suited for some kinds of pulpy game than it is for superheroes. Because of its age and design approach, while its very flexible in design, it doesn't have a great degree of on-the-fly flexibility (there's now a Power Stunting system of a sort, but its pretty weaksauce) and its metacurrancy is both optional, and bluntly, pretty weak.

Where it shines in the superhero genre (or some other related ones) is when you have a very specific way you want a character to work, and want it to actually matter on a detail level. This has some knock-on benefits in some genres where its possible to represent some things most game systems just don't have a good way to do; as an example, the wide variety of weapons in Fantasy Hero actually have differences that actually matter in play.

Now, nothing says you have to care about any of this, and as a big fan of superhero RPGs, there are absolutely good ones that don't care about getting down into the weeds that way, but sometimes things like that do matter to people.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
If there's a 'best' TTRPG, and there probably isn't, it's Hero System.

Heck, if there are any good TTRPGs at all, and I suppose there might be a few, Hero is among them. ;)

full disclosure: I'm thinking of the core system of the 80s, the 4th-ed-Champions/Universal Hero System since '89, and not whatever the 6th edition may have turned out to be. ;)
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Honestly, while not trivial, 6e doesn't feel as radically different from 4e as would be the case with a number of other systems that have had two edition spreads. I can plop down a 6e character sheet in front of a 4e player or vice versa, and the only thing they'd probably get wrong would be killing damage stun.
 

I've played a good 20+ years of active Champions and Hero system play in the past 40 years (same with GURPS, which draws a lot of comparisons). Here are my thoughts (usually in form of explanation & value, then potential downside):

It is a 3d6 resolution game. This has the advantage of making the minor changes in your score level being checked actually matter (to diminishing return, as moving a check from 10- to 12- is massive, but 15- to 17- less so). The only real downsides I see are 1) by having the change in effectiveness all on the dice curve and have the cost of scores be linear, at moderately high point games (or if you place enough situation-limiters) you can have effectively-can’t-fail checks (which can mess with gameplay assumptions in the rest of the system). 2) There are a huge number of tables with modifiers (small and large) which, depending on if the DM decides to use them (and whether, say, they even had an idea about what the light level or wing speed was before the table reminded them that it matters) can readily drown out the effort someone put into raising such and such a skill value.

It is a trad game with lots of focus on how well you can pick up, push over, move about, deal damage, what you can see, etc.; but with a lot of the needling details abstracted or shoved to the corner (in theory there is encumbrance, but in a game where gear-tracking and loot are not default assumptions, it shoves them off the corner; wealth is abstracted to bands in the default as well). It also has a general (non-combat and sensory) skill system that allows you to do social and professional skills, etc. (although exactly what you can do with, say, a psychology skill is going to be incredibly vague unless you have a supplement that deals with it). There’s nothing wrong with this unless it isn’t what you were looking for.

More broadly, it focuses on the genre-immersion level of verisimilitude, rather than quasi-realism. Exactly how is hard to pin down, excepting what I mentioned above, and perhaps that more (compared to GURPS) specific rules tend to be built of general ones, rather than having specific ones in place for real-world scenarios (example: bleeding wounds can happen in either, but GURPS has specific bleed-out rules, while with HERO is would be built out of points and function just like any other ongoing-damage effect; therefore it is easier to jettison them if that’s not the kind of combat power fantasy you are seeking).

It is generic, and (better than GURPS) does a good job of scaling up to the power scales that most genres deal with (Supers and space opera being notable examples). At the same time, it works well (if perhaps not as ‘realistically’ as GURPS) at lower power level/gritty scales.

It defaults to not-horribly-lethal, which I think is the optimal choice for a game where character creation is time-consuming and player-character investment is high.

It’s complex, but a lot of that is in the character creation (unless you have abilities with wide-open effects, which have lots of warning signs around them), and around the massive tables of modifiers. You can of course ignore both of those most of the time. However, those seem to also be a lot of the appeal of the game (I think nearly everyone who has played Hero/Champion or GURPS has multiple spiral notebooks full of characters or equipment or whatnot that they built using the build-from-points system that they never expect to play), so if you aren’t engaging in the complexity, you find it hard to sell your group on the system.

The system, in general, is pretty solid. Resolution is relatively quick (minus decision paralysis or people having trouble tracking a handful of often-changing values like two HP tracks plus Endurance and duration of ongoing effects). Like many games, characters have to-hits vs enemy to-not-be-hits and then if a hit occurs damage, minus damage-resistance is subtracted from Body and/or Stun. There are multiple brands of defense-offense scores (physical and mental), as well as several damage types/resistances. This can be an avenue for creativity, although it can also seem like you’re just going ‘okay, the enemy is strong vs our red-effects, anyone have anything resisted by orange?’ There’s also the scenario where you had no idea someone would build sonic attacks resisted by sound-base Flash-defense and that fine line between being creative and cheezy. Like any ‘build’ system, there’s some level of ‘the best way to have beaten the last challenge more easily would have been to have levelled your character different last time you got more points’ which may of may not speak to some people.

And, of course, it is a point-buy (generic) system. Point-buy generic systems run into a fundamental issue that a given quality isn’t ‘worth’ the same amount in all contexts and at all power scales and in all possible settings (and with other buyable options or gameplay systems turned on or off). Mind you, both Hero/Champions and GURPS don’t actually say that they are a balancing mechanism, but plenty of components within them tacitly do (such as: you are awarded points based on how well you do in adventures, the cost of ally groups depends on how many points they have, etc.), people will use them that way regardless, and most other alternate explanations for what they are fall into the ‘okay, but an actual balancing system would be more useful to me’ camp. Nearly every time someone mentions this, someone will say that they are a Fairness mechanism rather than a balancing mechanism, which, okay how does that help (what it seems to do is make people hypervigilant to someone else getting through story consequence what they paid points for, which yeah it does suck if you paid for a fancy rifle and the guy across the table took one off a knocked-out guard, but that’s also maybe part of a fun adventure). Even holding that aside, some of the costs seem arbitrary or sometimes strange, with things like Life Support (not needing food, water, air, or specific temperature) being incredibly cheap compared to any kind of combat benefit (in games that clearly do focus on combat, regardless of how universal they are). You can get more points by taking on disadvantages, which has obvious benefits (weighing options, bad things can happen to you and you really shouldn’t feel singled out since you chose them, etc.); but also have some negatives --GM has to remember to invoke many of them, many supposed disadvantages are really guaranteed spotlight time, for the rest the optimal choice is to choose disadvantages you don’t think will come up (thus least interesting), etc.

Fundamentally, I like the game and have fond associations with it. Also, I don’t think there’s really anything categorically wrong with the game (I have similar positive associations with WEG Star Wars, but recognize its scaling-problem as hard to ignore). I think it’s time with my main gaming groups are probably in the past, though. No one really has a passion for the bean-counting of character creation any more – even though, yes, (1+(1/4+1/2+3/4+5/4))/(1+(3/4+1/2)) isn’t actually complex (it just feels meaningless). Likewise we’d rather use disadvantage systems which reward leaning into the flaws, not trying to avoid them. Still, my overall opinion of it is positive. To what others have said, if you aren’t going to play the game, I find the GURPS supplements a better read-through. Make of that what you will.
 

Randomthoughts

Adventurer
I'm a bit torn over what to vote. I eventually chose "It's pretty good" but it's more complicated than that. I started with Champions 1e and played mainly through 4e (not counting some dabbling with 5e). Played and GM'd countless hours of the system.

HERO is a foundational rule set for me. What I mean is that it developed my preferences for superheroes games so I judge practically every superhero game against it. Like having point buy and comprehensive character creation, effects based powers and special effects, modifiable powers - both good (Advantages) and bad (Limitations) and identification of character/story complications (called Disadvantages).

I also see Champions as having created its own genre of superheroes - just like D&D, while inspired by various fantasy literature and sources, created its own. So, to me, it's less a system to emulate the feel of comic books (I think Cortex Heroic did a better job) and more of a superhero simulator, if that makes sense. Whether that's a bug or a feature, that's up to you, but it's a feature for me - IF I play HEROES.

The "IF" is why I hesitate. I mentioned elsewhere that it would be difficult for me to run HEROES now, mainly b/c of time - both in prep (ugh, ESPECIALLY in prep) and in play. The prep part I'm referring to is the toolkit nature of HEROES. You can build anything, but it takes time. And I would want to avoid time-consuming minutiae of building stuff with too many Limitations/Advantages. Ofc, I can use pre-made stuff (and would), but I'm certain to want to tweak things.

I want to run HEROES, but have a lot of conditions that have to be met. First, I would run it on a VTT (even in person). Automation would streamline a lot, like rolling 20d6 and calculating STUN. Unfortunately, there isn't an officially supported VTT AFAIK. Second, it would have to be the right group. Obviously, they would have to buy into the crunch. Like, if they don't want to build their own PCs (or have me help them build it), why not play something simpler? And they have to buy into a bit more crunch during combat than they are used to (but a VTT should help with that).

Unfortunately, there are so many competing rulesets out there so HERO isn't top of my list. But I would play/run it, if the conditions were right.
 

Kannik

Hero
Playing Champions 4e 30+ years ago was my introduction to effect-based design/rules, and I loved it. It became a fundamental understanding and concept for me of how fiction and rules interact, and how freeing that was for creativity and (more so in systems other than HERO) for at-the-table inventiveness and story coolness. I also enjoyed making characters (probably made 20x more characters than I ever played) to fit all sorts of neat ideas/concepts. Plus, at the time, I very much liked the minutia-laden and high-granularity nature of the system and encounter resolution. Not to mention rolling buckets of dice had its own kind of appeal (and became a meme/in joke)... When the 4e BBB was replaced by the 5e FRED book, I followed along.

And, as they say, that was then, this is now. While I think there's some core elements of the system that still 'feel' like they might be right and work for a semi-heroic game, I'd be reluctant to use it for superheroes or for a high operatic or cinematic action game. Especially on the superheroic side, its granularity (and fiddlyness) works against it, leading to semi-tactical but otherwise rather straightforward and rigid fights, with less speed, pizzazz, and flair than I would like. I also wouldn't use the system for something (including some superheroic genres!) that that leans more into thematic, narrative, and story aspects, as there's zero support for it within the system. Which leaves a very narrow band of campaigns that I would consider running in HERO today. Even there, I'd have to revisit the core system (it's been a decade or more since I last played) to see if it holds up or if something else would end up being a better fit.

That said, if someone invited me to play in a HERO-based game I wouldn't balk at it. It may no longer be one of my favs, but I have no dislike of it and think the game would still be plenty fun. In the end I voted "It's alright." (Though from the joy of the past my own rating is probably a third step up higher than that.)
 
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