WotBS Game balance and experience with potential adjustments

[Mrpereira]

In my campaign (WOTBS 3.5) we are currently halfway through the Mad King's Banquet getting close to the battle at Otharil Vale.

So far the game balance has been fine overall, but I have been noticing a few things that make me Wonder if the later chapters are going to need a little overhaul with regards til npcs and monsters. For instance the NPCs AC and to hit are on the low side compared to what the PCs have, the same goes with some of the DCs in the game. So far it has overall been fine, as the balance has worked out nicely, but I am wondering if the things I have noticed gets worse throughout the campaign.

What are your experiences? And what did you do, if anything, to even out some things you noticed as being problematic?

 

[RangerWickett]

Of course a lot of it depends on how optimized your PCs are, but a major factor in this is that we used a lot of NPCs rather than monsters, and back in 3.5 NPCs were not as challenging as the CR rules said they were supposed to be.

I'm pretty sure toward the end of the campaign we started beefing up the enemy stats, but sadly I don't recall when that started.

 

[hirou]

I have less experience with 3.5 than I have with 4ed, and I've only read through WotBS, not played it, but judging from the overall theory...

• in 4ed on average PCs fail to hit 1/3 of a time, while for monsters the chance is about 1/2. This is balanced by the fact that monsters are generally expected to (not) survive one fight, while adventurers go through several in a day.
• optimization can make a staggering difference, and I've heard that situation is worse in 3.5 than in 4ed, where it's really difficult to build inherently bad character as long as you at least match the primary ability with recommended for the class. Perhaps your party is simply overoptimized compared to what the designers expected.
• in my game there's a player who has created an arcane Sherlock Holmes, who can routinely beat Arcana Hard DC checks of lvl 25+ while being lvl 10 himself. It's sometimes hard to counter that, I give you that. Most reasonable way seems to be limiting the availability of one-check-win situations (no, you can't replicate this unique amulet even with 45 roll, it took years to invent; have a multi-skill challenge over the next 3 months).

 

[Mrpereira]

RangerWickett: Thanks for the replies, it is good to hear that you thought about it during the creation of the campaign.

Hirou: I agree, optimization is not something most adventures can handle - and in the case of my campaign I have players that are somewhat optimized due to the fact that they are only 3 players. It balances Things in general since they are one less PC. With regards to the skill checks it is easier to handle, partly because upping the DC is straight forward, and of course make rulings like your examples. It is more in terms of balancing fights that sometimes become an issue. Most of the enemies so far in 3.5 have had a hard time hitting DC 30(quite understandable) but it is the AC the players can get pretty quickly with a few spells (and those with duration of 1 hour pr. level are often cast beforehand).

I actually have no problems with the players feeling that they are doing great, and feel heroic because they have encountered the lower level opposition and the goons. I just needed to know if the higher level opposition actually would be real challenges already or needed a Little Work to get there

 

[Cheeslord]

[*]in 4ed on average PCs fail to hit 1/3 of a time, while for monsters the chance is about 1/2. This is balanced by the fact that monsters are generally expected to (not) survive one fight, while adventurers go through several in a day.
[*]optimization can make a staggering difference, and I've heard that situation is worse in 3.5 than in 4ed, where it's really difficult to build inherently bad character as long as you at least match the primary ability with recommended for the class.

My experience of playing in 4th wast that from the end of chapter 1 to somewhere in chapter 6 the party had it way too easy. It wasn't the hit chances that made the encounters weak but the very low damage output of the monsters (also having 5 combat capable NPCs helping the party in chapter 2 didn't help, but both the players and I agree now to limit things to at most 1 NPC that helps in fights...). Things seem to be getting better in Ch7 and I seldom feel the need to add damage output to the enemies now.

Mark.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I've been adjusting the stat blocks since pretty much the start of the campaign. Some are fine, others are complete jokes. In particular, the martial/caster multiclassed enemies are pretty much NEVER in practice the CR that they're assigned, and that's even with tacking on the Practiced Spellcaster feat. It's actually the next chapter that has the most ridiculously gimped regular enemies, IMO. The...
[sblock]monks of the two winds, which have awful stats and AC and all the issues of being multiclassed casters[/sblock] I had to buff those guys a LOT...

But yes, I love the campaign's general plot....however, the enemies are in many cases pretty poorly designed. I mean, I've seen things in the NPC stat blocks in the ~CR 12 range with under 50 hp....and they're not that hard to hit, either. It's just silly.

Some advice for the latter half of Chapter 4:
[sblock]- Do NOT expose ANYTHING about [secret boss], even just the name, at the battle. It shouldn't even BE THERE, it's just stupid and if your players are paying the least bit of attention, it will completely ruin the end of the chapter.
- When the party returns to Bresk, do NOT have the Ragesians hanging out in the background. It completely undermines the king's claim that they uncovered new evidence about the ragesian's actions that they're still walking free. Also, it just invites the party to try and pick a fight with them that night, and become frustrated if all of a sudden they can't be found around town. Much better is to say they're imprisoned pending a trial. Since people can't just visit prisoners whenever they feel like, for obvious (escape assistance) reasons, that puts a nice separation between them and the party. The party can request to visit them, but processing it would conveniently take long enough to not matter. I think when it comes to villains "less is more" and keeping them away adds some mystique. It also further incentivizes them to go in the sewers to sneak into the prison when Gallo asks them to, and then when they see the Ragesians hanging out with the traitorous guards, it all makes sense.
- Give the Tragedies some sort of sonic attack (I think I did a 30 ft cone for 7d4, Fort half, with a recharge time; called it "Wail") or something so that they have more than just a level drain attack. That just seems overly mean, to have some monsters right at the start of the last string of fights that do nothing but drain their levels away.
- Serrimus is completely worthless as written, in combat. I'd buff everyone involved a bit, but he's just so useless and the CR 6 is a freaking joke. I gave him a few more Sorc levels and Practiced Spellcaster, I may have taken away some of the aristocrat. And buffed his stats and gave him mage armor, of course. He still wasn't much of a threat, but at least he could contribute.[/sblock]

 

[Mrpereira]

Thanks for the reply. It is actually nice to get some feedback, that backs the feeling I had about the statistics. So far I have let the stats be as they are - on the easy side for a few reasons:

My Group only consists of three players, and rather than having a extra cumbersome npc with them, I have let the game play out to see how it Works. Lately I have been tweaking Things a bit. Secondly so far the players have mostly not been recognised as a threat in the big Picture, but that wil change, and Thus I will up the difficulty a long the road. Specially the Inquisitors have been annoying me, a cleric with very low ac, when he is prepared to fight is not optimal. My players are chopping through them like they were the bad guy's henchmen, and not the bad Guys themselves.

Due to the summer we have had a break in our sessions, and last session ended with them beating the Ragesians in chapter 4, but before the big finale. A bad place to stop the session, but it had gotten too late to continue.

My input for the chapter 4 ending, in case anyone else is interested are the following: (Let me just say that I agree with most of what Streaminthesky said), I just didn't read it until we had passed that point in the story.

Regarding the Ragesians, I did let them be present, but clearly had them being isolated and alone. I let the player's get the feeling that they were still here due to diplomatic immunity and as ambassadors WHO could take a decision back home, when it was made. The council had to be in session before a change of Heart from Dassen could be official.

Serrimus was a joke - but I didn't change him and he did not do much good in the fight (although he did manage to charm the same character twice). I think giving him a few more levels and spells would make the fight more interesting. Also I agree about the tragedies, that the level drain is tough and a sonic attack would be a nice way to substitute it.

In conclusion, I will be tweaking the Next chapters a lot more than I have so far - and any feedback on how people did it, would be nice to hear. Also, I am more than willing to share how my game is going with anyone else interested.

P.s. Sorry for the strange typos with a lot af Capital letters - I am not a native English speak

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, I guess it depends. I have 32 point buy, 3/4 max hp, most splat books allowed, half the party is using Tome of Battle, I buffed the martial classes a bit... so my game's more high powered than some, although I do ban/nerf plenty of caster goodies, too. I do also have 5 players now (early on it was as low as 3, though) and Torrent as a player-controlled NPC (re-built as a Crusader / Cleric / "Pearl Knight Vindicator", which is just a swimming-based variant of the hide-oriented Ruby KV). Still, the classed NPCs often have terrible AC and saves, are under-equipped for their listed CR (I understand w/ all the humanoid foes, treasure hauls are a concern, but w/o that gear, they're not really the listed CR), and multiclassed spellcasters seldom seem to have the "non-associated levels" factor into their CR calculation. As it is, I think the CR calculations for class levels are a bit too high in 3E, at least after the first few levels. I've largely adopted a policy that PC non-caster classes and adepts are their level -1 for CR; PC caster classes are CR = level, and NPC classes (other than adept) are their level -2 for CR. If they're under-equipped, that might also warrant another HD to make up for it.

The Inquisitors are rather easy targets, yes. I've actually tried to buff their defenses and make them more support-oriented b/c my players beeline for them as it is and they usually die within 2 rounds of combat. They then proceed to nearly die to the "mooks," who I've buffed offensively to encourage the party to whittle them down first rather than focus firing the inquisitor. Clearly, I need to do more to keep the Inquisitors alive longer... All Inquisitors now generally have levels in the Church Inquisitor prestige class (I adapted it to be LE instead of LG) and my homebrew vow of poverty, so they can have good defenses without giving up that savage look. My VoP rule is also available to the PCs, but I mostly consider it a godsend to let me properly equip a portion of the NPCs w/o giving the party outrageous wealth. I guess the tattoomancy can fill that role to an extent, too.
Serrimus doesn't need to be nor should be a serious threat, but I think Sorc 3 for some more 1st level spells and Practiced Spellcaster to make his CL worthwhile is a good choice, and calling him "CR 6" as written is really disingenuous.
I don't mean get rid of the level drain on the Tragedies, just to be clear. I mean give them a sonic attack to mix in with it so they're not JUST level draining every turn.

Not sure if you finished the chapter yet, but I added a detail to the end that I thought I read originally, but I guess my mind filled it in...
[sblock]I had the King, as the reality of all he had done / allowed to happen hit him, attempt to commit suicide due to being overcome with the grief. The party got a chance to stop it and just barely succeeded (it was amusing how much the dice wanted him to die, though). I thought it made sense and added some powerful drama, and helped make the king more sympathetic, especially since early in the chapter the players hated him so much they were considering trying to overthrow him. After that, they felt bad for him, and he was deeply grateful to them.

If you want the mechanics I used...it was basically a sense motive check for everyone in the room (Duke Gallo made it as well as some PCs), success meant getting to roll initiative with the king to try and stop him. Unfortunately, the king rolled really high initiative and the few PCs and Gallo that beat him all failed their disarm/grapple attempts. It came down to the PC w/ special visions of the future (an aspect I've greatly expanded upon in my game with actual in-battle mechanics to retcon bad stuff as "visions of the future" to a limited extent) to grant another PC a chance to stop him that finally succeeded.[/sblock]

 

[Mrpereira]

Not a bad idea, depending on how the final encounter is going to play out. I will keep it in mind.

I plan to make the final scene as dramatic as possible, with the players arriving in the middle of the Kings speech. Giving them a cinematic build up to the Chaos erupting around them, with several Things happening at once, leaving it up to the players to decide which threat they need to take care of first.

[sblock]Did your players have the song of forms for the encounter? My Group have a less than possitive attitude to bards, so they do not have any one capable of singing. On one hand I have considered letting them be able to do it with a perform DC20 or 25, on the other hand choices have consequences, so they might learn something from it.

In the latter case I have been thinking a bit about, what would happen in 1-6 days, when the Trillith respawns? Will she come back to continue her haunting of Dassen or would she move on to somewhere else? And where? [/sblock]

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

[sblock]Yeah, I made sure from the start I told them it would be really useful often throughout the campaign. I really don't want to deal with the headache of them not having it and the Trillith coming back. So they had it. I did loosen the requirements quite a bit, though. I allowed anyone to take Extra Music feat for 4 uses per day, but if they have no bardic music it can only be used for the Song of Forms. No one's taken me up on that offer. I allowed Leadership Performance to be expendable for it, too. I also have a homebrew Battle Dancer class based on Capoeira that gets various dances that give buffs like bardic music, and let those count, too. That last one is how they've had it so far.
I also got rid of the stupid Concentration requirement (ie, standard action to maintain each round, easy to interrupt w/ damage, and the player gets to sit out the combat. So fun! /sarcasm). I also haven't been enforcing the Con damage. I didn't intend to let that one go, but I just forgot about it until I looked it up now. Hmm... should I start enforcing that?
Note that the campaign does list spells that can accomplish the same thing, although they're mid level. I've avoided having them be "discovered" because a) until the party came through, no one outside of the Seela even knew the song of forms, you'd think it take some time to mimic it w/ spells through research and b) as long as someone can perform the actual song, I really dislike it when spells obsolete other options.
I'd suggest sticking Tiljann with them or some other solution. I did stat Lady Dene as a bard (as part of a subplot that fell through when the Bard PC left my game after Chapter 3), if you want to do that, though they'd have had to teach her the song beforehand. If it's too late to salvage, maybe just have [boss] go after them in Chapter 5 seeking revenge, so it can get resolved. Recurring villains can be a lot of fun. I actually added one to Chapter 5... In my game, they chased Paradim Dogwood out of town but failed to kill him. So I added him to the laboratory encounter w/ Aurus, eager for vengeance, which also was a tidy way to tie Lee Sidoneth to Pilus, or more accurately...remind the party about it.[/sblock]